Browns Folly Quarry / Mine - ongoing deliberate destruction

[Brains]

Peter Burgess has commented elsewhere (AN http://www.aditnow.co.uk/Community/viewtopic.aspx?p=173768#msg173768):

The idiots want attention. Don't give it to them. Those in the area who care might think about restoring ruined areas to their former condition, quietly, efficiently, and without fuss. Repeat, and repeat. Those who know Brian might think about discussing this with him so he understands what help is being offered. However, as I am not a local, this is merely a thought from an uninvolved observer. Quiet, effective, and non-confrontational.

I should add the important thing is not to publicise the damage so it gets no oxygen. Just keep on making good. The more that do it, the stronger the "quiet army". It might not keep the site safe, but it would encourage Brian and help him realise people care.

I feel I should add that the vandalism is very rarely reported but is happening on a weekly/daily basis at various levels. Last years publicity and the current thread may hint at widely spaced trouble, but this is not the case. The major attacks are additionaly preceded by scouting attacks (the name of a rave organising group was left), and followed by later visits to assess the damage caused (In this case names were added to the graf). This points to well planned and organised trouble, not just casual incidental trashing associated with a party underground. I feel the time to just hush up and hope it all goes away has long past. Direct dealing with the issue needs to taken, by which I do not mean violence but making it clear in person that such behaviour is not welcomed by the vast majority of the underground exploration community, and seeking to moderate the bad behaviour.

Positive suggestions please, what can we do to ensure a better outcome for the quarry , the bats, and us as explorers?

 

[ChrisJC]

Are any laws being broken?

Chris.

 

[Brains]

There is the obvious civil trespass, breaking and entering, littering
Damaging a bat roost would be quite likely
Threatening behaviour? Slander / Libel?
Tools have been stolen and destroyed, as have car keys
Cars have also been damaged with windows broken and bodywork scratched...
I am sure a good lawyer could find many more - Where is Grahams wife when you need her?

 

[MonkeyCaver]

Are any laws being broken?

Chris.

To break the law means there has to be a victim. To become a victim would require some form of harm loss or injury. There are many victims here. For a start there is obviously Brian for certain. But then you can safely say there is AWT, Sir Charles Hobbhouse, The folly fellowship, Restore, Hanson. Not sure where it will end but the list is not just focused upon one man any more. All the above have suffered some form of loss at the very least. Everyone equally entitled to make a claim against the perpetrators. Hopefully some time soon some will!!

 

[peterk]

Here is the CPS prosecution guidance on the alleged actions http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/trespass_and_nuisance_on_land/#a04. ( Note the "rave" section and the famous CROW phrase "open air")

 

[ChrisJC]

So really AWT, or the landowner have to take action. Brian can't do anything as he shouldn't be there either.

Chris.

 

[NewStuff]

Here is the CPS prosecution guidance on the alleged actions http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/trespass_and_nuisance_on_land/#a04. ( Note the "rave" section and the famous CROW phrase "open air")

I would suggest that it's more likely to be prosecuted under aggravated trespass, I understand that Brian has some sort of permission to be there, and they are there with the sole intention of screwing with him.

Aggravated trespass is the intention, or effect of:-

"a) of intimidating those persons or any of them so as to deter them or any of them from engaging in that activity,

b) of obstructing that activity, or

c) of disrupting that activity."

And it has the words "open air" quite specifically removed, as amended by the Anti Social Behaviour Act. I very much doubt those involved realise what can happen should the police decide they need to be involved. I understand that Brian is not totally blameless, I also appreciate that very few Urbexers are cockwombles that act in this manner, but what is happening is a vindictive and targeted attack on an old man, and it's disgusting.

 

[royfellows]

There is a new addition to the Facebook page on how they rave it up every weekend in the Folly. Except that its Beech Caves just up the M6 from me.
Maybe they so spaced out on on drugs or whatever they don't know where they are.

 

[MonkeyCaver]

So really AWT, or the landowner have to take action. Brian can't do anything as he shouldn't be there either.

Chris.

"Brian shouldn't be there"?? Now what ever gives you that idea? What makes you say that? Gossip spread all over the internet forums?

Brian, like you and I, has every right to be there. People like Brian could even be said to have more right to be there just because of the conservation work that he does, but I wont split hairs and start a sidetracked topic to debate. Bottom line is everyone has the choice to be there, you included! No one is prevented from exploring if they so desire

Its time certain people stopped picking on the 'easy' target'. If everyone likes the quarry so damned much why do they keep on giving grief to the person that tries to keep it looking good for them and everyone else to enjoy? I really would like to know!

I am pretty certain that even parties would be welcomed if people had respect for the place and removed all that they bought in and left it as it was found. No one would mind then, but it seems taking ones rubbish away and not graffing up/destroying the place is an impossible task for these people.

Lets also not forget the many 'protected' species of bat that are present in the quarry. These poor little things have to endure some of the most toxic smoke clouds and explosions from fireworks you can imagine down there. I have seen it so thick with smoke you can not see past 6 ft! Fireworks you would not want to stand near in open air being ignited in enclosed spaces with fractured roofs. How do you educate 'stupid'??

The problem here is far more than a bit of rubbish and some graffiti!!

 

[royfellows]

Interesting comments.

This is a paste in from a news library:

POLICE were this afternoon investigating what caused a cave to collapse, killing one teenager and seriously injuring another in a camping tragedy in Bridgnorth. The dead teenage boy, named locally as Aidan Brookes (pictured), who was believed to be 16, and an injured girl were camping in the side of a sandstone rockface overlooking the town, when the collapse happened at about 2am.

Police at the scene said that they had made a fire in the enclave, which is approximately the width of two football goal posts and no more than ten feet deep. It happened at the Lodge Lane Hermitage Caves to the east of the town. One theory is was that the fire dried out all the moisture absorbed into the rock over the winter months, which caused it to weaken.

 

[Ian Adams]

I remember that tragedy when it was first reported 

 

[crickleymal]

Interesting comments.

This is a paste in from a news library:

POLICE were this afternoon investigating what caused a cave to collapse, killing one teenager and seriously injuring another in a camping tragedy in Bridgnorth. The dead teenage boy, named locally as Aidan Brookes (pictured), who was believed to be 16, and an injured girl were camping in the side of a sandstone rockface overlooking the town, when the collapse happened at about 2am.

Police at the scene said that they had made a fire in the enclave, which is approximately the width of two football goal posts and no more than ten feet deep. It happened at the Lodge Lane Hermitage Caves to the east of the town. One theory is was that the fire dried out all the moisture absorbed into the rock over the winter months, which caused it to weaken.

I remember watching a Survivorman program (more like Ray Mears than Bear Girls) where he warned against lighting fires by rock overhangs for precisely that reason.

 

[MonkeyCaver]

Interesting comments.

This is a paste in from a news library:

POLICE were this afternoon investigating what caused a cave to collapse, killing one teenager and seriously injuring another in a camping tragedy in Bridgnorth. The dead teenage boy, named locally as Aidan Brookes (pictured), who was believed to be 16, and an injured girl were camping in the side of a sandstone rockface overlooking the town, when the collapse happened at about 2am.

Police at the scene said that they had made a fire in the enclave, which is approximately the width of two football goal posts and no more than ten feet deep. It happened at the Lodge Lane Hermitage Caves to the east of the town. One theory is was that the fire dried out all the moisture absorbed into the rock over the winter months, which caused it to weaken.

They do light fires down there also Roy. Often fuelled with paraffin or similar. 

 

[royfellows]

I have had another thought.

These so called raves, do they use powerful amplifiers? Cars go past my home that nearly make the house shake

 

[ChrisJC]

So really AWT, or the landowner have to take action. Brian can't do anything as he shouldn't be there either.

Chris.

"Brian shouldn't be there"?? Now what ever gives you that idea? What makes you say that? Gossip spread all over the internet forums?

Brian, like you and I, has every right to be there.

No, not at all. I don't have any right at all to be there. I would have to indulged in trespass to even get to the entrance, and going underground without the landowner / mineral owner's permission is also not on.

If the landowner has granted Brian permission, then fair enough. But just visiting regularly and doing excellent work (I know, because I have visited with Brian as a guide), doesn't override the fact that permission may not have been granted.

If you think we _do_ have a right to visit, then I'd be very interested to hear upon what basis that is, as it would apply to all the disused mines that I visit (under not necessarily legit circumstances!)

Chris.

 

[NewStuff]

I was under the impression that Brain had permission and keys to an entrance. However, I could easily be wrong, or he put the lock on himself etc.

 

[Minion]

Having spoken to Brian on a number of occasions on the subject of BF, I am 99% sure he has legitimate access and a key given to him by AWT for the entrance he uses. I have never asked him outright but it's the impression I get. He's a very nice bloke, and seeing him get slated on the various urbex forums and on the facebook page boils my blood.

 

[MonkeyCaver]

I have had another thought.

These so called raves, do they use powerful amplifiers? Cars go past my home that nearly make the house shake

Of course they use amps Roy. You can hear the music for many corridors away when parties are going on. Which shows how loud they are as the sand stone is a huge absorber of sound!

So really AWT, or the landowner have to take action. Brian can't do anything as he shouldn't be there either.

Chris.

"Brian shouldn't be there"?? Now what ever gives you that idea? What makes you say that? Gossip spread all over the internet forums?

Brian, like you and I, has every right to be there.

No, not at all. I don't have any right at all to be there. I would have to indulged in trespass to even get to the entrance, and going underground without the landowner / mineral owner's permission is also not on.

If the landowner has granted Brian permission, then fair enough. But just visiting regularly and doing excellent work (I know, because I have visited with Brian as a guide), doesn't override the fact that permission may not have been granted.

If you think we _do_ have a right to visit, then I'd be very interested to hear upon what basis that is, as it would apply to all the disused mines that I visit (under not necessarily legit circumstances!)

Chris.

OK lets get this straight as I have been led to believe anyway.

I am not sure my saying we have a 'right' is the correct thing to say, but then again who says we don't have a 'right', or does not want us to be there? There certainly is no objection from anyone towards anyone about going into the quarry that I have ever heard of.

The closest thing to this was AWT placing bars on the hill side entrances to prevent people going directly into bat roosting areas. It was not an attempt to keep people out all together as they can not do that. Their concern is the wildlife as their name suggests.

There are permissive footpaths leading to 'Muddy hole'. So the land owner 'Sir Charles Hobhouse' obviously has no issue about being on his land if the footpaths are adhered too.

As for the owner of the underground quarry, 'Hanson', there has not as far as I am aware been any sign from them to prevent access to the quarry.This means they must be okay for people to visit or they would surely seal it up.

Brian has not been granted permission for anything in the area. The only thing that he had permissive was access to Shakespear's gate. This is now completely removed so that permission has kinda gone by the way side for now.

So to sum it up, basically there is no such thing as 'permission' or 'right' to be there, but there is equally no attempt to prevent anyone from exploring the quarry either, aside of course from the bars on AWT land which obviously get cut with angle grinders and other power tools these days. Does that give people a right? I do not know, but that is topic for another debate.

I was under the impression that Brain had permission and keys to an entrance. However, I could easily be wrong, or he put the lock on himself etc.

Brian was indeed granted permissive access via Shakespear's gate to the quarry in order to help him access the quarry with his gear to do conservation work. The locks were originally AWT locks but these soon got cut away. In order to keep the access opened and useable he replaced the locks many many times, at his own great expense, in order for AWT to not simply come along and 'weld' the gate shut. They AWT, were quite happy about this and get along well with Brian, sharing knowledge and assisting each others causes when necessary.

Having spoken to Brian on a number of occasions on the subject of BF, I am 99% sure he has legitimate access and a key given to him by AWT for the entrance he uses. I have never asked him outright but it's the impression I get. He's a very nice bloke, and seeing him get slated on the various urbex forums and on the facebook page boils my blood.

It isnt just your blood it is boiling Minion. There are many others also. I have answered your point in this post previously so wont answer it again

 

[ChrisJC]

It seems to me there are two courses of action that could be taken:
1. Legal means. These would have to be driven by people with a legitimate basis, e.g. Hanson, Hobhouse, and possibly Brian (although perhaps only Brian knows the legitimacy for certain of his involvement)
2. 'Other' means - lots of options. Since this is the most likely outcome, best not to discuss what they might be on a public forum. But it would be fun to arrange a counter activity for when the next rave is on that scares the ravers so much they never come back......

And to MonkeyCavers point about there being no signs, I don't think this gives any sort of access. We have the legal concept of ownership, of land and buildings (amongst other things), which give the owner a monopoly of access which he is entitled to extend. Footpaths clearly are an exception. But as an example, there are no signs on my garden or house saying keep out, nevertheless an intruder would be on the wrong side of a number of laws......

Chris.

 

[andrewmcleod]

It seems to me there are two courses of action that could be taken:
1. Legal means. These would have to be driven by people with a legitimate basis, e.g. Hanson, Hobhouse, and possibly Brian (although perhaps only Brian knows the legitimacy for certain of his involvement)
2. 'Other' means - lots of options. Since this is the most likely outcome, best not to discuss what they might be on a public forum. But it would be fun to arrange a counter activity for when the next rave is on that scares the ravers so much they never come back......

Option 2 is almost certainly a terrible idea - you would be no better than the ravers. The law and solutions exist, it is just that the cost of installing CCTV and private security is presumably implausible.