Croesor Rhosydd - Boat is stuck

[cavemanmike]

There is a bolted climb up as an alternative to the SRT up pitch at the Rhosydd end of the boating lake that could be done with a combination of cowstails, etriers and so on, but if you don't have prussiking gear, then there is a good chance you haven't got the bits/skills to do that safely either.

I agree

 

[Cosmo Smallpiece]

The division that bypasses the first abseil is actually a more difficult route.

Ah! Thanks for that clarification.

Not one of those many callouts seems to have involved any kind of injury. This is remarkable considering the technical difficulties here compared to say, walking up a mountain.

It seems this group was unaware the boat was stuck. The overdue groups were unaware of the time needed to complete the route. The problem seems to be the lack of a reliable point of information about the route. We no longer have ME or AN. I can't find an up to date route map on the Web. If the default sites for info are the "youth oriented" urbex sites then the focus is on light-painting rather than safety equipment.

I think taking the canoe out and asking people to bring their own inflatable is a recipe for disaster. The thing is going to be too small, too lightweight and get too easily damaged. Falling into the water will become more likely.

Although a sign at the entrance is a good start. I'm concerned that if newbies got that far and realised they couldn't prussik or didn't have helmets, they would just press on because they've already come too far to call it off. It's a long walk up!

 

[carpet]

Does anyone know if anything is actually being done/planned about the boat in the short term? Me and a mate (both of us live locally) were wondering about going down with a massive length of blue draw cord and seeing if we could figure out a better way to rig it so it doesnt get stuck, we have a couple of ideas on how this could be done.

 

[cavemanmike]

To be fair the pulley system seemed to work pretty well for year’s so possibly a stronger cord. Good luck

 

[carpet]

To be fair the pulley system seemed to work pretty well for year’s so possibly a stronger cord. Good luck

Yea our thoughts were mostly along the lines of beefing up the existing system, so far as we can tell the main issue causing jamming is the pullies, I've had to hang just above the water for a while before now ungumming the one at the bottom of the abseil. Also thinking possibly also adding a guide rope to prevent the canoe drifting right and hitting the protruding rock?

 

[wellyjen]

Yea our thoughts were mostly along the lines of beefing up the existing system, so far as we can tell the main issue causing jamming is the pullies, I've had to hang just above the water for a while before now ungumming the one at the bottom of the abseil. Also thinking possibly also adding a guide rope to prevent the canoe drifting right and hitting the protruding rock?

Currently, the pulley system is not in use at all. The boat is paddled to the Rhosydd end by those on board, then pulled back to the Croesor end by a blue polyprop cord (floating). When the boat is drifting about in the lake between trips, the floating slack cord has every chance of getting tangled up and preventing the boat being used. See my reply from July on our experience. No idea what caused the boat to get hung up which lead to the shout, but angle grinding through that bit of old steel cable would remove the snag hazard that caused us problems. There may be others and mitigating as many of these as possible is a good idea as a first step before looking at reinstating the pulley system. Simple to do and would make any modified pulley system more robust too. Using a nylon cord that sinks would make the risk of snagging even higher, so stick with polypropylene.

 

[ChrisJC]

Certainly I think something should be done. If the boat can be made to work properly, that would help.

Whether there's a way to 'encourage' people to be sufficiently prepared to be able to retrace their steps, I don't know.

Chris.

 

[cavemanmike]

Certainly I think something should be done. If the boat can be made to work properly, that would help.

Whether there's a way to 'encourage' people to be sufficiently prepared to be able to retrace their steps, I don't know.

Chris.

👍
It’s actually not that hard to retrace your steps if you’ve got full SRT kit

 

[wellyjen]

👍
It’s actually not that hard to retrace your steps if you’ve got full SRT kit

Which could still lead to a call out from being overdue, as you not only have the extra time of getting all the group up the pitches, but possibly a walk back over the mountain before a phone is reachable. People should base their call out time on having to retreat back through Croesor and I'm sure many set theirs on the assumption of success.

 

[vanoord]

👍
It’s actually not that hard to retrace your steps if you’ve got full SRT kit

And if you know how to use it!

But I'd add that it's better if one person who does know what they're doing gets out and calls for assistance rather than someone with the wrong kit / inexperienced gets into trouble on the rope. Much better to be sat on a rock for three hours than dangling from a rope. Or, worse still, having fallen.

Which could still lead to a call out from being overdue, as you not only have the extra time of getting all the group up the pitches, but possibly a walk back over the mountain before a phone is reachable. People should base their call out time on having to retreat back through Croesor and I'm sure many set theirs on the assumption of success.

Mobile phone reception has improved up there in recent years - it's now possible to send / receive text messages from outside the adit at Croesor.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Last pitch is up, although only short. They would of struggled with that as its a little awkward to get off at the top

I've taken non SRT'ing novice through it twice - what better place to learn 🤣 (they were closely supervised and I had a 60m dynamic and microtraxion and pulley/haul setup etc, before anyone goes ballistic).
There's an almost irresistible temptation for people to jug right up to the anchors and then find they can't get off the pitch. Without some forthright guidance most novices will do that, despite the fact it's only about 5 metres ascent that "up" pitch catches novices out.
The phantom rope cutter hasn't been at that pitch lately? There was a spate of that and it'd be a bit spicy to climb in wet wellies, but I think doable! (think it was Sam who bolt laddered it in case or repeated rope molesatation?)

 

[Custards]

Charm or not, I worry people are forgetting that the true purpose of the boat is to avoid being eaten by the shark!
As long as there remains a way to avoid becoming food, I'm going to be happy.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Yea our thoughts were mostly along the lines of beefing up the existing system, so far as we can tell the main issue causing jamming is the pullies, I've had to hang just above the water for a while before now ungumming the one at the bottom of the abseil. Also thinking possibly also adding a guide rope to prevent the canoe drifting right and hitting the protruding rock?

As far as I can determine, whether it will stick or not (there is a rock to snag on) depends on the previous party. If they leave the pull rope

to the left side of the canoe (as facing Rhosydd) which is easier for people getting out, then it will stick. If the return rope is left on the right side of the canoe (as facing Rhosydd) the canoe will retrieve to Croesor just fine. This has caused me trouble in the past!

Just having a bit more slack in the system would get around that. If it could give enough slack for the canoe to rotate if one end hits the rock, when the rope system is tensioned, the return rope (on left in picture) prevents the canoe from being able to rotate round and return

 

[carpet]

As far as I can determine, whether it will stick or not (there is a rock to snag on) depends on the previous party. If they leave the pull rope View attachment 16567to the left side of the canoe (as facing Rhosydd) which is easier for people getting out, then it will stick. If the return rope is left on the right side of the canoe (as facing Rhosydd) the canoe will retrieve to Croesor just fine. This has caused me trouble in the past!

Just having a bit more slack in the system would get around that. If it could give enough slack for the canoe to rotate if one end hits the rock, when the rope system is tensioned, the return rope (on left in picture) prevents the canoe from being able to rotate round and return

The main issue i see with extra slack is it could lead to extra tangles and you just end up replacing one problem with another. We were thinking of going down in wetsuits and having a play, seeing if we could figure out how to set it up so it cant hit the Rock no matter what you try and do. Main idea was a semi tensioned line that the canoe can ride along, and then a separate line to haul it along on

 

[pwhole]

If polyprop is only being used because it floats, there must be a better solution - it's awful in every other respect. Getting into the water (safely) in wetsuits to fix this seems eminently the better solution, and a tensioned line above the water with a tether to the line at each end of the boat to stop it rotating would surely work fine.

 

[carpet]

If polyprop is only being used because it floats, there must be a better solution - it's awful in every other respect. Getting into the water (safely) in wetsuits to fix this seems eminently the better solution, and a tensioned line above the water with a tether to the line at each end of the boat to stop it rotating would surely work fine.

So far as i can fathom, that seems to be the only reason polyprop is being used (it is also very very cheap which is another reason it's good). 100% agree that wetsuits in the water is the best way to sort it out - possibly dive fins too as its a fair swim to the other side if you're doing it more than once while rigging?

 

[jasonbirder]

I think taking the canoe out and asking people to bring their own inflatable is a recipe for disaster. The thing is going to be too small, too lightweight and get too easily damaged.

For years that was how it was done and i don't remember it being more "call-out" prone than it is now (if anything the reverse)
The humerous photos up-thread show it being done with all matter of "toy" Inflatables...(I've done it myself with an Inflatable Killer Whale and an Action Man Dinghy...both of which were removed rather than being left as in-situ litter) so the necessity for a substantial inflatable is surely over-stated as long as suitable clothing/bouyancy is taken

 

[cavemanmike]

The main issue i see with extra slack is it could lead to extra tangles and you just end up replacing one problem with another. We were thinking of going down in wetsuits and having a play, seeing if we could figure out how to set it up so it cant hit the Rock no matter what you try and do. Main idea was a semi tensioned line that the canoe can ride along, and then a separate line to haul it along on

That sounds like a good idea

 

[cavemanmike]

For years that was how it was done and i don't remember it being more "call-out" prone than it is now (if anything the reverse)
The humerous photos up-thread show it being done with all matter of "toy" Inflatables...(I've done it myself with an Inflatable Killer Whale and an Action Man Dinghy...both of which were removed rather than being left as in-situ litter) so the necessity for a substantial inflatable is surely over-stated as long as suitable clothing/bouyancy is taken

I do remember going across in a white inflatable armchair that had written on the side of it . This is not a floatation device 🛟 do not use it in any water environment 😂😂😂. But to be fair I did have a life jacket on

 

[mikem]

@Cantclimbtom Whilst the system is not in use the boat can swing either way, so rope won't remain on opposite side, but may reduce problems if people who know reset it each time. Attaching to both ends would be better for the haul across, but not for getting in & out, although it may be possible if just enough slack included.