Croesor Rhosydd - Boat is stuck

[Cantclimbtom]

@Cantclimbtom Whilst the system is not in use the boat can swing either way, so rope won't remain on opposite side, but may reduce problems if people who know reset it each time. Attaching to both ends would be better for the haul across, but not for getting in & out, although it may be possible if just enough slack included.

Rope attached to both ends rather than one end would mean that you could pull it off the rock at the Rhosydd end rather than wedge it onto it, but there'd need to be a load of slack because being able to turn it 90 degrees to the rope at the croesor end of the cavern to get into the canoe, is pretty useful

 

[mikem]

It wouldn't actually need that much slack, only about the length of the boat (same amount as in there already)

 

[Heatkeymk2]

Hi all,

First time posting here, my friends and I went down from the Croesor to do the through trip on Tuesday the 22nd of August. Boat was stuck, sadly I didn’t have a wet suit, went in the water in shorts and cut the rope that was holding the canoe stuck, it looked like a knot had formed somehow on the boat.

As a short term fix there is a rope tied to either end of the canoe, another group came after us and it worked for them.

It may hold up for a while but I’d advise caution until someone with more know how can make the pulley system work again.

 

[wellyjen]

Rope attached to both ends rather than one end would mean that you could pull it off the rock at the Rhosydd end rather than wedge it onto it, but there'd need to be a load of slack because being able to turn it 90 degrees to the rope at the croesor end of the cavern to get into the canoe, is pretty useful

It wouldn't actually need that much slack, only about the length of the boat (same amount as in there already)

How about this as a way of getting the boat to pull across, without turning and wedging on the sunken rock? Attach a rope from bow to stern. Have a ring tied to the continuous pull cord. When the direction of pull changes direction to move it across the lake, the ring slides along the bow to stern painter until it is pulling from the end that is going to be travelling forward. As the ring can slide along the bow to stern rope, the boat can be turned 90 degrees at the Croesor end to allow easy abseil straight in from the pitch. The boat can turn when required, but while being pulled, it will travel in a straight line and doesn't flip 180 degrees when the direction is reversed.

 

[wellyjen]

To add to the above. That the ring can slide along the bow to stern rope also means that the boat can be positioned precisely under an abseiling caver and allow it to be shifted over to let a second one to drop on board. It also means that the pull rope can be set up with minimal slack.

 

[carpet]

How about this as a way of getting the boat to pull across, without turning and wedging on the sunken rock? Attach a rope from bow to stern. Have a ring tied to the continuous pull cord. When the direction of pull changes direction to move it across the lake, the ring slides along the bow to stern painter until it is pulling from the end that is going to be travelling forward. As the ring can slide along the bow to stern rope, the boat can be turned 90 degrees at the Croesor end to allow easy abseil straight in from the pitch. The boat can turn when required, but while being pulled, it will travel in a straight line and doesn't flip 180 degrees when the direction is reversed.
View attachment 16581

Thats a class idea! Only thing i can think is that the sliding ring may get hung up on the canoe thwarts and or yoke and cause an interesting issue, but you'd have to do some experimenting to find that out. Me and the mate i mentioned previously are thinking we may head down sometime next week, wetsuit up and have a play, we will try your idea and our idea and see what happens with both when you run the canoe back and forth a bit, basically just see if we can "fix" the current issue (cant possibly make it any worse from what I'm hearing). If anyone wishes to meet us there and join in the fun, I can give you a day and time we'll be aiming for the croesor end of the lake once we've worked out when we're both free?

 

[wellyjen]

Thats a class idea! Only thing i can think is that the sliding ring may get hung up on the canoe thwarts and or yoke and cause an interesting issue, but you'd have to do some experimenting to find that out. Me and the mate i mentioned previously are thinking we may head down sometime next week, wetsuit up and have a play, we will try your idea and our idea and see what happens with both when you run the canoe back and forth a bit, basically just see if we can "fix" the current issue (cant possibly make it any worse from what I'm hearing). If anyone wishes to meet us there and join in the fun, I can give you a day and time we'll be aiming for the croesor end of the lake once we've worked out when we're both free?

The devil will be in these sorts of details, if it is going to be a reliable solution. Thank you for volunteering to give the various ideas a trial. It's the only way to know for sure. Hopefully there is a better system in amongst them. Good luck and take care in the deep water. Won't be able to make it myself unfortunately.

 

[mikem]

Unfortunately the only way a ring would reliably run along the rope would be if it is tensioned & thus obstruct access to the boat. The painter tied to the rope nearer the Croesor end might work as a yoke & allow the boat to turn alongside for loading (again length of painter would be important)

 

[wellyjen]

Unfortunately the only way a ring would reliably run along the rope would be if it is tensioned & thus obstruct access to the boat. The painter tied to the rope nearer the Croesor end might work as a yoke & allow the boat to turn alongside for loading (again length of painter would be important)

A suitably large stainless ring should slide pretty easily. Its weight in the water would put the painter under tension. There are people around at both ends that can move the ring along the painter, if it is showing signs of not sliding, when the direction is changed. Either sat in the boat at the Croesor end, or having just got out at the Rhosydd end. Ideally, the last people across would send send the boat back to the Croesor end, or at least make sure the ring is set, before prussiking up to the passage. A note to that effect in the use instructions at the top of the Croesor abseil.

 

[mikem]

Yes, but we know they won't reset it. Unfortunately everything nowadays needs to be idiot proof & if they haven't moved ring to other end before getting into boat it may well knock them over the side.

 

[wellyjen]

Yes, but we know they won't reset it. Unfortunately everything nowadays needs to be idiot proof & if they haven't moved ring to other end before getting into boat it may well knock them over the side.

I think I see the misunderstanding. I'm not suggesting the bow to stern painter runs across the open cockpit of the boat, where it can knock people over. but to the side of the boat, as in my sketch above, or even underneath. with enough slack to let the pull ring slide easily. I am now starting to think that underneath will be better, as there is deep water at the Croesor end and the "beach" at Rhosydd has a steep drop off, so little chance of snagging on underwater obstacles. A slack painter to the side is probably going to end up underneath any way. With a suitable length tow link to the pull cord, this should give a better chance of a successful direction change without human intervention. See profile pic below.

If the boat doesn't quite get to the wall at the Croesor end, it can be pulled in by the abseiler with the tow rope. At the Rhosydd end, by either paddling the last couple of feet, or again, pulling on the tow rope. The exact length of tow rope would need experimentation. Too much and the boat can move enough unconstrained to hang up on whatever obstacles are there. Too short and it risks catching on the end of the boat. If some one has a Canadian style two/three person canoe that they can experiment on under the sky, that would be very useful. Otherwise, it will have to be tried underground in Croesor. What are your suggestions for a better method of setting up the boat that can't possibly go wrong under any circumstances?

 

[mikem]

If the painter is slack enough for ring to slide along it then it will lift up as soon as anyone starts pulling on the rope & shortest distance is directly across the top of the boat. There isn't any system that is totally foolproof, it's a matter of finding best one for this situation (& I've only been there once, several years ago, but made couple of suggestions previously) - generally don't want anything hanging underneath, where it can snag on unseen obstructions

 

[wellyjen]

It has the potential to do that yes. Only a trial will tell for sure. The actual force required to pull the boat is tiny. If the painter does flip up to the top side, then the sideways component from half that tiny force isn't going to be enough to throw the occupants over the side in to the drink. They'd probably barely notice it had moved. I've been there several times, the most recent was in July, where I had to take an inflatable canoe to sort out a pull cord tangle. It has been on my mind, as you can probably guess!

 

[mikem]

No, the rope won't tip them in, but them moving to try & avoid it might. I think following is simpler - it will pull back fairly straight, then people will be in it to keep it straight for return:

The painter tied to the rope nearer the Croesor end might work as a yoke & allow the boat to turn alongside for loading (again length of painter would be important)

 

[wellyjen]

I carried out a sea trial of the idea.. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. Used a two person inflatable canoe, which is lighter than the fibreglass one in Croesor, but a similar size. The painter was some old 10mm caving rope. The ring was steel, about the same diameter that a carabiner is long. The pull cord was the common blue polypropylene string.

The ring used, with a snap krab as comparison.

The bow to stern painter set up long, with the ring in the middle roughly. I tried it like this and with a much shorter painter. Both behaved the same.

The result.

The ring does not slide along the painter as hoped at all, but remains in the same place. No reversal is going to happen.
Back to the drawing board. Better found out in the sunshine on a bank holiday Monday than underground in deep cold water. The inflatable canoe is as close a substitute to the green fibreglass one as I could manage. I don't think the other boat will be different enough to behave as hoped, despite the extra weight and drawing a bit more when empty.

 

[cavemanmike]

The old system worked perfectly well for years but heavy traffic and low maintenance has an effect. Re-install the old system but with the added extra of a steel (preferably stainless) cable bolted at the same height as the canoe as a guide. Very large pulley wheels so the rope can run through easily and smoothly. Just a thought

 

[carpet]

The old system worked perfectly well for years but heavy traffic and low maintenance has an effect. Re-install the old system but with the added extra of a steel (preferably stainless) cable bolted at the same height as the canoe as a guide. Very large pulley wheels so the rope can run through easily and smoothly. Just a thought

While i would love to add a steel cable, i am alas skint and cannot afford anything but the bare minimum. Planning on stringing up a knackered static line as a guide, and then if it works sufficiently well it can be replaced with a decent cable at a later date.

 

[cavemanmike]

While i would love to add a steel cable, i am alas skint and cannot afford anything but the bare minimum. Planning on stringing up a knackered static line as a guide, and then if it works sufficiently well it can be replaced with a decent cable at a later date.

If you let me know how long the steel cable needs to be I’ll see what I can do

 

[carpet]

If you let me know how long the steel cable needs to be I’ll see what I can do

We'll measure up once we have a system set up that works, and let you know. Alternatively, we're gonna be down there later this week, i can pm you an exact time, if you're bored and live locally enough you could come measure for yourself.

 

[cavemanmike]

We'll measure up once we have a system set up that works, and let you know. Alternatively, we're gonna be down there later this week, i can pm you an exact time, if you're bored and live locally enough you could come measure for yourself.

Thanks for the offer but work is frantic at the moment