Is it OK to go caving?
- Thread starter PeteHall
- Start date
Pitlamp
Well-known member
mikem said:
My own reluctance to go caving at the moment is just as much about not wanting to risk infecting others as much as protecting myself. I could catch it from a symptomless friend, be pre-symptom myself, then pass it on unknowingly to far more vulnerable people.
I'm one of the volunteers here in the Dales who delivers boxes of food to those who need to self isolate, often because of their age or underlying health problems. I don't want to be in a position where one of them goes down with Covid-19 and I was always wondering if it was me who caused it.
Believe me, I'm missing my caving as much as anybody - but all the projects will still be there once humankind has got on top of this pandemic. There are other things to catch up on in life meanwhile, freeing up time for later on. Besides, just think how rabidly keen I'll be once we do get back to normal!
alastairgott
Well-known member
Pitlamp said:Besides, just think how rabidly keen I'll be once we do get back to normal!
Like a friendly stray dog with rabies, "hello, have you got any food", "any food".
Or a seagull plucking chips out of people's hands at the seaside.
Roger W
Well-known member
tony from suffolk said:
Laurie's story makes it so clear that this virus is not something we can ignore or pretend isn't there.
Unfortunately a lot of people are taking this attitude. I meet 'em every time I go to the supermarket. Young guys who barge past you trying to get wherever they are going that bit faster. Old ladies who dodder right up to you without any idea of keeping their distance...
Because the virus doesn't appear as a luminous green haze in youe expired breath or as fluoroscein-like traces on anything you touch, people seem to think there can't possibly be anything dangerous there.
Be thoughtful and considerate. Cave carefully. And give others space in the supermarket!
pwhole
Well-known member
I do believe that some our less savoury 'national traits' are becoming to leach out now, as they did at the beginning of the lockdown - and the three years before that in the you-know-what shitstorm. A general lazy arrogance that we know best about everything when we plainly don't, and we won't do the research to find out stuff, or use any humility when dealing with people who actually do know best and are trying to help. I'm using the royal 'we', as I am definitely not including myself - though it may seem like that sometimes.
Many of the countries in Europe are now genuinely winding down from their (proper) lockdowns and are slowly re-opening safely. We've had a fake lockdown with no serious implementation, a quite monstrous death-toll and are now exiting unsafely with no testing and tracing system in place. We may end up being totally left behind, with no physical access to Europe as we're deemed 'unclean', and no-one wanting to visit us for the same reason. Why would they? What if only the UK ends up having to operate a quarantine system? And then we have a no-deal Brexit looming...which is really what's going on here. They really do not give a shit about us.
Mind you, if 50,000 excess deaths doesn't raise much more than an eyebrow from the public, I guess we can't blame them for keeping on with it. One excess death is usually deemed a tragedy for those involved. 50,000? Government accident, mate.
Many of the countries in Europe are now genuinely winding down from their (proper) lockdowns and are slowly re-opening safely. We've had a fake lockdown with no serious implementation, a quite monstrous death-toll and are now exiting unsafely with no testing and tracing system in place. We may end up being totally left behind, with no physical access to Europe as we're deemed 'unclean', and no-one wanting to visit us for the same reason. Why would they? What if only the UK ends up having to operate a quarantine system? And then we have a no-deal Brexit looming...which is really what's going on here. They really do not give a shit about us.
Mind you, if 50,000 excess deaths doesn't raise much more than an eyebrow from the public, I guess we can't blame them for keeping on with it. One excess death is usually deemed a tragedy for those involved. 50,000? Government accident, mate.
Actually, pwhole, I entirely agree with your sentiments so I?m not arguing with you, but I?m after the ?pedant?s award? by pointing out that ?the royal we? in fact means ?I?!
I?ve no idea when this nonsensical idea took off, but I?m pretty sure it was in vogue in Tudor days, when, for example, if Henry VIII said, ?We are pissed of with our wife? what he meant was, ?I am pissed off with my wife?.
Perhaps the most famous example of this nonsense is the one attributed (rightly or wrongly) to Queen Victoria, who is supposed to have said, apropos of I know not what, ?We are not amused? ? meaning, of course, ?I am not amused?.
If you look at a map of the virus distribution in Europe you will see that the worst is in the West, it declines through Central Europe and is low in the East. All our neighbours are in the same ballpark as the UK, probably for similar reasons to do with intensity of travel/interactions and urban density. We are about the most obese country in Europe, which doesn?t help probably. Many of our care homes are pokey and poorly funded. I am not overly impressed about the performance of Public Health England and NHS support systems, but it?s normal for here. My experience of other health systems in NW Europe is superior. This is never going to change.
We do now have one of the highest test capacities in the world, which didn?t exist 2 months ago. Frankly a minor miracle. However we are likely to suffer from IT solutions dreamt up by the public sector, or God forbid at any point, Capita. I don't hold out much hope for that anyway given half the munchkins in the country are already campaigning against any app, on the basis presumably someone will find out about their naughty habits or something. Who knows with Team Alcan.
We do now have one of the highest test capacities in the world, which didn?t exist 2 months ago. Frankly a minor miracle. However we are likely to suffer from IT solutions dreamt up by the public sector, or God forbid at any point, Capita. I don't hold out much hope for that anyway given half the munchkins in the country are already campaigning against any app, on the basis presumably someone will find out about their naughty habits or something. Who knows with Team Alcan.
RobinGriffiths
Well-known member
Fjell said:
Serco is in.
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
Hardly anyone I know will download the app. I won't as I don't have a smartphone. To be honest I hate the ruddy things. They become obsessive. So track and trace can surely only work if around %90 of people use it which they won't.
Russell Myers
Member
Afternoon all, latest update from BCA here - a distillation of information about cleaning ropes and kit etc. to keep the virus at bay plus the reply to a question about dispensing kit from Clubs to their members in terms of meeting current restriction requirements.
Thanks to Bob for doing the donkey work.
https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=start
Russell Myers
Acting Secretary
BCA
Thanks to Bob for doing the donkey work.
https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=start
Russell Myers
Acting Secretary
BCA
cap n chris
Well-known member
Presumably because there's guidance about cleaning kit after caving this supports the view that caving for clubs and their members is back in business.
Stuart France
Active member
Hi Russell - BCA's latest advice seems a bit obsessed with legal definitions - whether a caving club lending out gear to members is a "business". The Welsh Statutory Instrument does not help us here - it refers to a "Business" without defiining it.
I'm struggling to find a legal definition of a business in British law. Can anyone help me? Here is the American one:
"That which occupies the time, attention, and labor of men for the purpose of a livelihood or profit." The implication being paid employment (livelihood) in the hope of being paid a wage/salary etc (from gross profit).
This is not dissimilar to our definition of a mine which is an excavation for the purpose of getting minerals for commercial gain by persons employed for the purpose. So again, there needs to be a livelihood and commerce involved. So a cave dig cannot be a mine when nobody got paid. If a Hymac with paid driver was involved, then it still isn't a mine if the excavated minerals (soil etc) were not sold - the objective was not to "get" the minerals, it was to "get rid of" them.
How many caving clubs pay corporation tax and dutifully fill in an annual CT1 return to HMRC? Hmm, not many.
The other focus of BCA's new statement is washing equipment. What about BCA doing some drop tests on nylon ropes washed on various programmes (low temperature, fast wash, slow wash etc) various number of times, I'm sure Bob can oblige. What is the safest washing powder to use? What about dilute toilet bleach? Dettol? Wool pullover detergent? Fairy Liquid? No detergent or additives at all?
I'm struggling to find a legal definition of a business in British law. Can anyone help me? Here is the American one:
"That which occupies the time, attention, and labor of men for the purpose of a livelihood or profit." The implication being paid employment (livelihood) in the hope of being paid a wage/salary etc (from gross profit).
This is not dissimilar to our definition of a mine which is an excavation for the purpose of getting minerals for commercial gain by persons employed for the purpose. So again, there needs to be a livelihood and commerce involved. So a cave dig cannot be a mine when nobody got paid. If a Hymac with paid driver was involved, then it still isn't a mine if the excavated minerals (soil etc) were not sold - the objective was not to "get" the minerals, it was to "get rid of" them.
How many caving clubs pay corporation tax and dutifully fill in an annual CT1 return to HMRC? Hmm, not many.
The other focus of BCA's new statement is washing equipment. What about BCA doing some drop tests on nylon ropes washed on various programmes (low temperature, fast wash, slow wash etc) various number of times, I'm sure Bob can oblige. What is the safest washing powder to use? What about dilute toilet bleach? Dettol? Wool pullover detergent? Fairy Liquid? No detergent or additives at all?
Government only likely to consider gear being lent out for courses, so have to make our own decisions - problem is that huts are multi-purpose, so don't fit into any one category.
There is a bit about hiring kit out under sharing equipment:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/guidance-for-the-public-on-the-phased-return-of-outdoor-sport-and-recreation
There is a bit about hiring kit out under sharing equipment:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/guidance-for-the-public-on-the-phased-return-of-outdoor-sport-and-recreation
pwhole
Well-known member
I bought a bottle of Beal rope wash a few years ago from Go Outdoors and have used that with confidence, naturally - at home on the rare occasions I use my own posh rope and it gets slightly dirty. I also use Liquid Soap, which I assume is more or less the same, though not on rope yet - but it's fine on merino wool so I can't imagine nylon will suffer:
https://www.biggreensmile.com/products/dri-pak-liquid-soap/dpsoapflake.aspx?productid=dpsoapflake&utm_source=google&utm_medium=merchant_centre&utm_term=%7Bkeyword%7D&utm_campaign=merchant_centre&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqNmo_tTw6QIVR7TtCh1gKQRQEAQYASABEgJ6UPD_BwE
But even Beal acknowledge that their regular instructions recommend 30?, not 60?, so their new instructions recommend not doing it too often! Out club ropes are generally left drying over the week after a regular caving weekend, but they're only washed in cold water, and no way would we be able to run a Maskhill-type rope quota with soap at 60? and expect to get home before Monday morning. Personally I think ropes are probably the least risky element of a group trip in terms of equipment - I suspect krabs and maillons would be worse, and maybe kit bags too, especially if you have them on your back. I still think airborne transmission would be the riskiest factor in a trip, but that's purely intuition and limited personal experience. You're probably more likely to catch it from each other while you're washing it all rather than when you're actually using it underground.
https://www.biggreensmile.com/products/dri-pak-liquid-soap/dpsoapflake.aspx?productid=dpsoapflake&utm_source=google&utm_medium=merchant_centre&utm_term=%7Bkeyword%7D&utm_campaign=merchant_centre&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqNmo_tTw6QIVR7TtCh1gKQRQEAQYASABEgJ6UPD_BwE
But even Beal acknowledge that their regular instructions recommend 30?, not 60?, so their new instructions recommend not doing it too often! Out club ropes are generally left drying over the week after a regular caving weekend, but they're only washed in cold water, and no way would we be able to run a Maskhill-type rope quota with soap at 60? and expect to get home before Monday morning. Personally I think ropes are probably the least risky element of a group trip in terms of equipment - I suspect krabs and maillons would be worse, and maybe kit bags too, especially if you have them on your back. I still think airborne transmission would be the riskiest factor in a trip, but that's purely intuition and limited personal experience. You're probably more likely to catch it from each other while you're washing it all rather than when you're actually using it underground.
Stuart France
Active member
Peter, that was not a serious suggestion of mine.
Anyway, following the link from the BCA statement leads to several rope manufacturers' advice pages, all of them different, including:
1) hang the rope up for 72 hours (presumably indoors and not in UV light as that is said to be harmful to ropes)
2) soak the rope in neat isopropyl alcohol then hang up to dry
3) soak the rope in an aqueous solution of at least 70% iso etc
4) wash it in washing machine for half an hour at 60C in the rope manufacturer's proprietary detergent or hand soap made from olive oil and not more than 10 times.
Anything involving large amounts of iso sloshing about then hanging it up in a hot shed on a summer's day sounds to me like a potential exploding shed.
Personally, I use the "economy 40 minute cold wash with medium spin" option on my washing machine with a dash of Asda's finest Non-Bio Delicates Wash thrown in as a wetting agent, then hang the rope in the shed to dry or on the washing line if it is not a sunny day. Comes out with a nice smell too and doesn't seem to alter the abseil speed but this was of course pre-coronavirus. Susceptibility of viruses to Asda Non-Bio Delicates Wash is an unknown.
But what about detergent with enzymatic action? What about pineapples or steak tenderizer, essentially we would want to generally knacker the virus's proteins, I think, to render its RNA bomb undeliverable.
Anyway, following the link from the BCA statement leads to several rope manufacturers' advice pages, all of them different, including:
1) hang the rope up for 72 hours (presumably indoors and not in UV light as that is said to be harmful to ropes)
2) soak the rope in neat isopropyl alcohol then hang up to dry
3) soak the rope in an aqueous solution of at least 70% iso etc
4) wash it in washing machine for half an hour at 60C in the rope manufacturer's proprietary detergent or hand soap made from olive oil and not more than 10 times.
Anything involving large amounts of iso sloshing about then hanging it up in a hot shed on a summer's day sounds to me like a potential exploding shed.
Personally, I use the "economy 40 minute cold wash with medium spin" option on my washing machine with a dash of Asda's finest Non-Bio Delicates Wash thrown in as a wetting agent, then hang the rope in the shed to dry or on the washing line if it is not a sunny day. Comes out with a nice smell too and doesn't seem to alter the abseil speed but this was of course pre-coronavirus. Susceptibility of viruses to Asda Non-Bio Delicates Wash is an unknown.
But what about detergent with enzymatic action? What about pineapples or steak tenderizer, essentially we would want to generally knacker the virus's proteins, I think, to render its RNA bomb undeliverable.
RobinGriffiths
Well-known member
Copper or silver micro-particles might be the way to go. Or maybe a Van der Graf charging a couple of plates to a few million volts and you stick your rope between them?