lack of caving

[Cavegod]

is it just me or is caving at a low point at the moment? i remeber when i started caving 11 years ago there used to be hundreds up in yorkshire each weekend and in the week these days your lucky if you see 5 people!

 

[tiggs]

is it just me or is caving at a low point at the moment?

yep its DEFINATELY just you mate ;-)

 

[SamT]

Dont know really - I reckon there are probably as many cavers as there used to be, its just far more diverse these days with wider choice of areas to visit. Since most people have their own transport and equipment, you dont get the large club meets all concentrated in one area. but lots of people all in different areas.

If you know what I mean :?

 

[dunc]

yep its DEFINATELY just you mate

Woah, the dragon has spoken!

You don't visit the popular caves/pots/mines to see people - doing obscure stuff has its advantages!!!

But no, its true, caving has declined, more so since that waste of public money occured, what was it again.. hand and nose disease..? :?

I'm sure ever increasing crap, sorry, bureaucracy and insurance has played a part in diminishing numbers..

 

[diggerdog adam]

I think the phrase you are after is "Caving has gone underground" :wink:

 

[Simon Beck]

The wharfedale ends pretty quiet these days, most cavers seem content on hanging around the 3 countys, that dosen't mean i'm complaining though!.

 

[paul]

You see less cavers around, most clubs report declining new members, caving shops report less and less customers... At least it is less crowded underground except for Giants Hole!

 

[Horace]

Perhaps there are fewer cavers around but there's still not many trips I've been on in recent months without running in to 1 or 2 other groups, the most unexpected being a party of schoolchildren and two teachers in Ireby Fell! If schools are running trips as ambitious as this, rather than the likes of Giants and Porth yr Ogof perhaps there's hope a resurgence in interest yet.

 

[cap n chris]

It seems pretty busy down here; mind you I am reliably assured that in 1974 Mendip was awash with hordes of hairy cavers - perhaps that was THE highpoint of caving in the UK.

 

[dunc]

If schools are running trips as ambitious as this, rather than the likes of Giants and Porth yr Ogof perhaps there's hope a resurgence in interest yet.

Sounds interesting! Theres not much to do in Ireby without descending three pitches - which I would have thought for a party of kids would be erm, dodgy on insurance grounds.. And how did they get the kids to walk all that way without them whinging!?

Theres still plenty of bods milling around the Churns but other areas seem quiet at times - I tend to see less cavers but plenty of led groups etc - do none of them keep going after that first trip?

 

[martinr]

When I started caving in 1975, it was far busier than it is today. I can recall trying to count the bods in Swildons, and giving up at 100 before we even reached the ladder pitch. And when we did reach the pitch, there would be very long waits. There would even be people forming a queue for sump 1 when we got there. There would be minibusses and cars jam- packed on Priddy Green, and you couldnt get in the Queen Vic or the Hunters on Friday evening because of the numer of cavers. I'm not saying it was like this every weekend, but it happened regularly. The huts would be fully occupied - if you add up the capacity of the BEC, WCC, MCG, UBSS, MNRC it must have been at least 150 bed spaces. I dont think these cottages are fully booked these days, except for club AGMs and specials such as the Rescue conference. So, yes, I would say it is not as busy now as it was, at least on Mendip.

 

[tiggs]

So what's caused it to tail off? Beauraucracy? Media coverage? Insuarance problems? lack of easy access? is it HARDER to gain permission to go down certain caves than it was 11 or 20/30 yrs ago? What are people doing now INSTEAD of caving?....!!

 

[Getwet]

I have been caving less than a year. Am very suprised at how few groups we see down the caves, other than long churn which was rather too busy for me!!

 

[martinr]

I think it is the "competition" that has caused the tailing-off. In 1975, caving was considered to be a daring activity that was relatively cheap to take part in. And it must have been cheap, cos lots of us were students and we were presumably hard-up? All you needed was a cotton boiler suit a hard-hat and a carbide lamp. Maybe 1 krab. We shared transport, and used the BEC or MCG for cheap accomodation, then maybe joined one of the clubs-with-a-hut when we left uni so we could get access to ladder and rope. There wasnt much competition for a cheap, daring, sport except perhaps for climbing. Other sports were much more expensive, eg some of my better-off mates were into rallying in MK1 Ford Escorts or skiing but I didnt have the money they had. Now, people are generally better-off (I am sure people will disagree with this statement, but it is true) most people seem to have their own transport and dont need to share cars or cadge lifts. They try caving for a few months, tick off the classic trips, then move on to their next choice, maybe paragliding or whatever, There is just so much more to do nowadays than caving, and people can afford to try different adventure sports. I dont think its insurance or bureaucracy.

 

[cap n chris]

Tiggs says, "So what's caused it to tail off?.... etc.".

Imagine a general background level of activity which is low but continual. Imagine then a peak or spike of activity, caused by media coverage, word of mouth, fashion ... whatever. Now (I can't answer this since it was before my time) ask the question, "Was the highpoint in UK caving an anomalous peak caused by a cascade effect, before which time there was a low level of caving activity and after which there is now also a low level of caving activity?".

This view is probably wildly inaccurate but we see fads come and go and perhaps the highpoint of UK caving was when it was in the "fad" phase? Other fads which come and go, and come back again, include skateboarding, flares and silly haircuts. Just because they go out of fashion isn't necessarily a bad thing - just think of all the conservation going on underground as a result of there no longer being 100+ people in Swildon's every Saturday.

Reasons for decline may be numerous and cumulative:

1) Judging by the scared shitless attitude of parents who won't even allow their children outside it's little wonder there are fewer newbies coming forward.

2) Clubs have trouble dealing with under 16s.

3) Caving is hard work.

4) Caving is not in the media glare; it is not "cool". We have no positive PR and things are going to stay that way. I constantly hear "It's not a numbers game", "Less is good" etc..

5) Caving is perceived as being "extreme", hostile, dangerous and something only stupid people do. (Possibly true, possibly untrue; perhaps both).

6) Insurance, bureaucracy, fear, paranoia - all may play a part.

7) Obese and unfit porkers mostly want to watch telly and eat McShitburgers, not do active stuff.

8) The general ageing effect; UK caving clubs are demographically non-representative of youth activities. The highpoint of 1974 is 31 years ago - anyone active then and presumably 20+ is going to have a hard time making youngsters say "Wow! - I want to be just like you and do what you do".

9) Cost of gear - caving kit is beyond the budget of most; parents will not shell out for a "one minute wonder" which costs so much.

10) There is no procedural route for young people to become established as cavers - Scouts are good but there is no real network or support - mostly caving is done by bloody minded, stubborn people who persist at it, learning as they go.

11) What's actually wrong with the present (lower) level of caving numbers?

12) add your own lists as you see fit.....

:wink:

 

[dunc]

So what's caused it to tail off?

-Media coverage- I wouldn't have thought so - its not often caving gets coverage - even then its only when someone is lost, seriously injured or regrettably loss of life.. Which shows cavings dangerous edge but it's not something that happens on a regular basis.

-Beauraucracy / Insuarance problems- Certainly haven't helped, the fact insurance is required for more caves than it was a few years back then yes.

-lack of easy access- not sure, I wasn't around that long ago - in 8 years I've seen no real changes apart from a few places requiring insurance that previously didn't.

Other than that, hard to say - I certainly noticed a decline during foot and mouth - and it hasn't picked up since then to levels when I first started.
Someone, somewhere said it might be that there are more "extreme" sports available and more choice - why do just one when you can dabble in twenty different sports but not commit to any particular one...?

 

[twllddu]

There are, no doubt, many reasons but I think there are two main points to bear in mind. Firstly there is recruitment of "new blood" and, despite what many people may think about university clubs, they are/were a good source of young and enthusiastic bodies and they do seem to be suffering disproportionately with regard to liability insurance.

Secondly there is retention, how long do people actually spend potholing before going off to do other things / get a proper life ? Is the current attitude of work work work preventing people from getting out ? Maybe a survey is in order to get a feeling for this ?


Now, where are my slippers ?

 

[Stu]

Sounds interesting! Theres not much to do in Ireby without descending three pitches - which I would have thought for a party of kids would be erm, dodgy on insurance grounds.. And how did they get the kids to walk all that way without them whinging!?

Not having a pop at you here Dunc, more at the attitude of the statement. It's not impossible even in this day and age for youngsters to engage in "healthy pursuits". New Secretary of State for Education only today made efforts to actually encourage teachers to get kids out of school and into the big wide world. Much is made of this "we can't take the kids out on field trips because we'll get sued if something happens"! It's simply not true. As long as proper permission is sought and the necessary bits of paper are filled in, teachers could in fact arrange a trip into say Ireby. I think the real problem is that some, not all teachers aren't committed in the way they used to be. The numbers of teachers I know who got into it because they couldn't think of anything else to do is increasing. Teaching used to be ( I hate to say it) a calling. If your only motivation is the wedge at the end of the month, of course you're not going to go to the hassle of going out of you're way to do the extra curriculum bit.

This isn't teacher bashing per se, but I do personally feel the insurance/getting sued line many take is a convenient excuse or screen to hide behind. So maybe the next time we're stuck behind a group in Long Churn we should be just a little bit more grateful someone in a crappy comp in Leeds or Manchester has had the inspiration to try and get the message through to the kids that there is more to life than McShite and 30 minute video game fixes.


Amen!!!!!

 

[ian mckenzie]

Here's a perspective from across the big wet.

I kind of agree, unfortunately, with Stu's characterization of teachers today. Although there are lots of good, committed ones around, it is becoming more of a job than a passion, and I blame the highly unionized state of things... Every year they shave a few more minutes off classroom time to the benefit of teachers and detriment of the students.

However, I think that most outdoor-oriented teachers would love to continue taking kids outside, but are not allowed to by their school boards, because of fear of litigation. There isn't any doubt about this. "Proper permission" and "little bits of paper" do not avoid liability. I have to believe this lamentable situation is even worse in the USA.

 

[darkplaces]

My personal view is all the regulations including silly insurence and this 'need' people have to gate every entrance they find is to blame. If you gate places like Box or Browns for example your cutting off the flow of new cavers from that inital inquisitive look by someone just passing by. Apart from friends and faimly of existing cavers who might join a club, that 'find' of a hole and being able to freely take a look is the major injection of people into the underground exploring community. I'v banged on about this before. The established cavers may say its easy to join a club get insurence ask permission. But no it isnt easy if your a teenager, have no idea of clubs, CSCC etc etc and have this mad idea of looking in this hole with little torch. Add a few years and you have little old me......

Maybe I'm not the best example but I think someone already said caving hs gone underground :wink: with uninsured groups deciding not to join clubs but deciding to go independent (reminds me of another group I know ) so really you never know, the numbers of 'cavers' might be higher then you think, just un counted ones.