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Question about stop grip and slip.

porgzilla

New member
Hi,
A mate and I have been discussing about gripping and slipping on a stop. Is this even a thing? I've heard about this potential often enough from club members but never heard of it being an actual thing.
.
I fell once at Sell Gill dry pitch when my stop handle got briefly pinned against the wall, but it was only half a metre or so of falling before I fell free and the handle released.

Also, from a pure safety perspective, wouldn't a stop always outshine a simple?
 
By gripping and slipping do you mean clutch and plummets? Or just creeping down the rope?

I swapped from stop to simple because found I had more control of the dead rope and therefore my speed when descending because I could have two hands on it.

I think a lot of people control their speed of descent via the handle on a stop and not the dead rope, which is not very good for your rope! Clutch and plummets can and do happen, (terrifying to watch), so proper training is definitely more of a factor in safety while descending than which descender is used.

Doesn't matter which bit of kit you prefer, as long as you use it properly and safely!
 
The size, type and condition of the rope is going to be a big factor. As is the type and amount of wear on the bobbins. At one end of the scale, with an old fat 11mm for instance, you can hardly move down the rope - especially if you don't weigh much. At the other, with new, thin 'hard' rope, you can hardly stop the descender without a lot of braking. On balance a Petzl Stop is much more likely to save your skin if you lose control or have other problems than a Petzl Simple is. A Stop takes a bit more time to learn how to use properly but the new Stop is easier than the old version IMO. A Simple is the less safe option, again IMO.
 
By gripping and slipping do you mean clutch and plummets? Or just creeping down the rope?

I swapped from stop to simple because found I had more control of the dead rope and therefore my speed when descending because I could have two hands on it.

I think a lot of people control their speed of descent via the handle on a stop and not the dead rope, which is not very good for your rope! Clutch and plummets can and do happen, (terrifying to watch), so proper training is definitely more of a factor in safety while descending than which descender is used.

Doesn't matter which bit of kit you prefer, as long as you use it properly and safely!
Thats the one I meant, clutch and plummet.

But I agree about using a simple for better rope control. For me at least, especially on the older stops, descent control is rotten on your hands. Both holding the lever and feeding, belaying rope.
 
The size, type and condition of the rope is going to be a big factor. As is the type and amount of wear on the bobbins. At one end of the scale, with an old fat 11mm for instance, you can hardly move down the rope - especially if you don't weigh much. At the other, with new, thin 'hard' rope, you can hardly stop the descender without a lot of braking. On balance a Petzl Stop is much more likely to save your skin if you lose control or have other problems than a Petzl Simple is. A Stop takes a bit more time to learn how to use properly but the new Stop is easier than the old version IMO. A Simple is the less safe option, again IMO.
I have tried the new stop but only on a short pitch, but have been assured that it remains rather smooth on the bigger ropes too.

I had an interesting issue the other day with a simple: cold, smooth hands and I think a 9mm rope felt honestly like a major safety issue, particularly when trying to get off the rebelay safely and not plummet.

I think a newer stop is the better option for me.
 
I think a lot of people control their speed of descent via the handle on a stop and not the dead rope, which is not very good for your rope!
I use a driving analogy - the handle on the stop is the handbrake, the dead rope is the footbrake. Or, possibly better, a train driving analogy, the handle is the 'dead man's handle' and the dead rope is the brake. So the stop (new style) shouldn't be braking unless something happens to me and I let go the handle.
 
I've never seen a clutch & plummet but I've heard the result - the noise of a body hitting the deck. Luckily on a short pitch - one of those just beyond the duck in Simpson's.
After his short stay in hospital we tried to work out what had happened because he couldn't remember anything.
He rarely locked off his Stop, certainly not on a simple pitch like that, and we decided that he had reached down and taken hold of a dangling cows tail and then squeezed the lever.
If you lock off then when you unlock you know you have hold of the right rope.
 
I've been there when it's happened to someone (although it wasn't a Stop actually but a Singing Rock descender with a weird design).

At the deviation halfway down Cathedral in Lost Johns', the caver (of many years' experience) somehow managed to pin the handle in 'go down fast' mode by getting the tail of the rope hooked under the handle. See the diagram below for the design quirk - we think the tail got hooked in the blue position marked, providing enough friction (they were rigging, so perhaps the friction caused by the tail being in the bag tipped it over the threshold) to enter GO mode but not enough to enter panic STOP territory.

They zipped down the remainder of the pitch, fortunately realising what the situation was and fixing it a metre or two from the deck. They 'only' sustained a damaged ankle from swinging into the wall when coming to an abrupt halt. It did shake us all up, and everytime I go down Cathedral now it gives me the chills replaying their shouting and the zipping sound. I lock off at deviations myself but I realise quite a few folks don't. After seeing that, it's the only real lesson I could pick out. At least when using quirkier products ;)

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I had an interesting issue the other day with a simple: cold, smooth hands and I think a 9mm rope felt honestly like a major safety issue, particularly when trying to get off the rebelay safely and not plummet.

Interesting. I'm a bit worried about this now. Hasn't happened to me but maybe it's just a matter of time. I wear gloves so hopefully that will help.

Using your Simple at rebelays - do you not do the "soft lock" then the "hard lock" before weighting your Simple and then testing it with your cowstail(s) clipped in somewhere? Or do you mean that when you were removing the lock you felt like you might drop because of not having good grip on the rope because of your hands?

What sort of braking krab do you use? The Handy things are good in my experience and easier than a steel oval karabiner.
 
I'm getting increasingly irritated by Stop (old one still but I've used new stop a lot too) especially handling thicker rope (10.5mm) when slightly fluffy, damp, stiff and dirty. Tried various combinations of controlling it with dead rope only, handle+dead combination, extra braking krabs and sometimes the best I can get it a fast succession of mini drops, I've learned to machine-gun the drops really fast and the rope smooths it out a bit to something analogous to smooth controlled descent, but not quite.

Worst I've ever had was a few years ago with new stop on a thick stiff rope and a 70m pitch in Derbyshire and I had to fight to feed rope to cause a 1/2 metre fall and repeat the process all the way down: faffing about and then falling, and the pitch below, although it had been as good as gold on the first pitch 🤬.

On a 10mm dynamic dry rope (e.g. descending from a giant tree) it will creep considerably and hands free, I'd descend at a medium pace.
Clean and dry semi static 10mm in good condition seem just right.

Stop is very sensitive to the ropes. Overly sensitive!
 
I did pull the handle on my Rig the other day and dropped (only about 50cm or so) rather faster than I expected, and then realised that the rope I was holding was not the brake rope. First time I've done that, and I reckon the better handle on the Rig (and presumably the new Stop) versus the very 'stop/go' handle on the old Stop probably helped (as it's a lot more gradual).
 
Personally I have always used the old Petzl Stop, with 10.5mm rope, I have only ever had a handful of slippages, the first time it happened was because of the amount of mud on the device, luckily it was a small 11m pitch, after that, one thing I always do since then, is have a trailing 7mm chord as a prussik.

So I'll abseil a foot or two and then bring it down while keeping the dead rope tensioned using a braking karabiner, yes it is a bit more effort, but it has stopped me from having slippages on older & muddier ropes.

I have used all kinds of descenders like the Petzl I.D., the Rack (only for massive abseils,) and the old Petzl Stop, in my observations I learned that what happens is the brake can get caught in oval shaped and HMS karabiners, so now when I use my stop I use an 8mm Mallion Rapide for my Petzl Stop, to connect to the D-Ring.

Since I started doing this I haven't had the brake get caught in a karabiner since, so my personal experience tells me it has a lot to do with the choice of the way you attach the Stop to your harness.

One thing I have experienced but only in OHA, because of the mud.
Sometimes there is that much mud that the brake doesn't work under these conditions and the rope self feeds itself through although somewhat feeding slowly through the stop, it does show a bigger issue at hand.

I do agree, the stop makes you feel safe even though there could be more danger present, but I still feel it would be safer than a simple, if it came to a scenario where you became unconscious mid rope.
 
Interesting. I'm a bit worried about this now. Hasn't happened to me but maybe it's just a matter of time. I wear gloves so hopefully that will help.

Using your Simple at rebelays - do you not do the "soft lock" then the "hard lock" before weighting your Simple and then testing it with your cowstail(s) clipped in somewhere? Or do you mean that when you were removing the lock you felt like you might drop because of not having good grip on the rope because of your hands?

What sort of braking krab do you use? The Handy things are good in my experience and easier than a steel oval karabiner.

Hoping I didn't create any undue anxiety here: I didn't have my glove on on the day and I just felt that I couldn't grip the rope effectively when getting off the hanging rebelay at Rumbling hole.

I was on cowstails but was having issues pulling the rope taught and when test waiting it took much rope was feeding through so I got temporarily trapped in a rebelay/weighting loop.

If I'd had gloves on from the start it wouldn't have been an issue, but it did make me consider using a backup shunt in the future.

P.S.what is the handy thing you spoke of?
I use a steel oval and feel like it creates more issues honestly.

Quick edit: Yes to your second question.
 
I've been there when it's happened to someone (although it wasn't a Stop actually but a Singing Rock descender with a weird design).

At the deviation halfway down Cathedral in Lost Johns', the caver (of many years' experience) somehow managed to pin the handle in 'go down fast' mode by getting the tail of the rope hooked under the handle. See the diagram below for the design quirk - we think the tail got hooked in the blue position marked, providing enough friction (they were rigging, so perhaps the friction caused by the tail being in the bag tipped it over the threshold) to enter GO mode but not enough to enter panic STOP territory.

They zipped down the remainder of the pitch, fortunately realising what the situation was and fixing it a metre or two from the deck. They 'only' sustained a damaged ankle from swinging into the wall when coming to an abrupt halt. It did shake us all up, and everytime I go down Cathedral now it gives me the chills replaying their shouting and the zipping sound. I lock off at deviations myself but I realise quite a few folks don't. After seeing that, it's the only real lesson I could pick out. At least when using quirkier products ;)

View attachment 21653

Scary story, thanks for sharing.

I used one of these devices for my first srt trip, in Rowten no less 🤦, and found that I couldn't pull the slack through the damn thing, so getting on to the rope for every descent requires precariously lowering my weight onto the thing.

It was promptly retired, but only after we had gone and done Jingling straight after Rowten...
 
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