SRT training in Yorkshire Dales

[Downer]

I am a member of a club, and I can indeed get SRT training/practice from fellow club members, and have no doubt about their competence

But a) I'm not going to take to this like a duck to water, and I feel I need more input that I can reasonably expect my fellow cavers to give me. They already put up with quite enough from me!

b) There's no guarantee I am going anywhere with this. I might well step back at the end and say 'well, thank you very much, but I didn't enjoy that one bit and I never ever want to do it again'. I feel I can do that to someone I have paid to teach me, but I don't think it's fair to do that to someone who has given up their own time for free.

I did a grade 3 climb at our local climbing wall this lunch hour, and felt quite shaky for some time afterwards. I really don't like this vertical stuff. I really wouldn't inflict me on friends.

I am not fond of looking over edges at all and could not bring myself to climb out for my first abseil (from a bridge!) I was then persuaded to climb up the rope instead and found I felt totally secure. I looked down and was amazed to find myself already 20 ft up. No problem! I proceded to the top (anther 70ft) and then abbed down. You may be like me in that you are lucky enough for those very instinctive reactions to be ameliorated by knowing you're safe. Of course it's still a bit nervy but that's OK. But to this day I can't stand close to a cliff edge even with a sturdy fence to hang onto, unless I've got support up to chest height so I couldn't possibly topple over. Odd things, brains.

 

[ian.p]

The paid instructor is probably insured.

the green card says it insures you for third party liability for both surfice and underground caving activities wouldn't this cover you for training people? i don't like the idea of liability being a reasonexcuse for not spreading skills and to be honest I'm not convinced it is and if it is then shourly that's a pretty big issue that needs to be dealt with by the BCA

 

[Hammy]

But I do not believe that learning how to cave from a proper caving club is in any way inferior. 

Well I do! I have had experience of caving with three different (well established) caving clubs and have walked away from all of them because I felt that their approach to safety fell way short of the mark. Obviously I won't name and shame on here.

I'm not suggesting that all clubs are like this by any means, just the three that I have experience of.

http://www.caveinstructor.org.uk gives you another alternative.

 

[kay]

If its the exposure you are bothered by, then a few sessions on a good climbing wall might help. If its like our local leisure centre you can more or less just turn up, pay, and have a go with paid instructors to advise.

Done that 
Did a 4 week introductory course. That's what enabled me to get up the grade 3 (1) And, more importantly, belay my husband, thus  giving me a willing partner while I scare myself pottering on huge holds not very far up.

(1) Almost worth it for the fun of being lowered again - the only bit of climbing I enjoy.

I did a 4a at Leeds wall - but that was on the 'slab of cheese' - the slight deviation away from verticality made all the difference. A slither rather than a fall if it all goes wrong.

 

[kay]

Kay: It's worth remembering that SRT is not the be all and end all of caving, despite what the SRT anoraks might suggest. There is plenty of good caving to be done (even in the Dales!) without having to dangle on a rope on every trip.

I know    But my combination of no SRT and being wimpish over free climbs and traverses does rather limit me. I don't want to get into the SRT-for-the-sake-of-it side of things, but I'm hoping that if I can do simple SRT and improve my climbing confidence it will enable me to expand horizons a bit. Get into Easegill for example - Mistral is not a free climb so far as I am concerned!

 

[kay]

I'm not saying that a professional trainer is no better than a volunteer, just that anyone can do a bad job, professional or not. We all have our bad days, don't you think? I know several cavers who would be my first port of call if I wanted advice and help on any techniques unfamiliar to me, SRT included. I don't feel I necessarily need 'proof' of their competence, by peer review or otherwise.

But isn't informal peer review what happens in a club? You get a good view of what your fellow club members are doing, and bad habits will be corrected by your fellow club members. Unless, of course, the whole club shares the bad habit!

(But even there, people tend to belong to more than one club, and that helps the sharing of good practice)

 

[kay]

I am not fond of looking over edges at all and could not bring myself to climb out for my first abseil (from a bridge!) I was then persuaded to climb up the rope instead and found I felt totally secure. I looked down and was amazed to find myself already 20 ft up. No problem! I proceded to the top (anther 70ft) and then abbed down.

The only problem is that, with caves, you usually have to do the down bit first 

 

[Geoff R]

Kay

I have without doubt been scared of heights all my life and place me in an exposed vertical situation in an "open space" and I  "was" not at all happy. Perhaps similar things occur with others ?  Interestingly enough I was always fine underground.

My biggest problem was that a gym replicated my wide open space fear; perhaps like a climbing wall?

yesterday I stood on top of my (rocking) horse trailer power hosing its roof; today I hung out of my landing window talking to my wife below; Im now happy to rig along rafters in a high gym; all matters that two years ago I would not have contemplated.

SRT has helped me a great deal
with the right support and understanding I think you will suprise yourself

Dont worry too much how you feel in wide open spaces - practice and try underground
Read what I wrote earlier - IMHO there is a lot of misinformation out there. 

Geoff


 

 

[kay]

yesterday I stood on top of my (rocking) horse trailer
 

A trailer for rocking horses? 

 

[Geoff R]

Like it 

try it Kay, an Ifor Williams horse trailer with no horses in it and yo on the roof - it rocks on ! 

 

[Geoff R]

joking aside, Im sure some very careful cavers would be pleased to slowly introduce you to SRT in a very carefully controlled confidence giving way.

I was (and still am) very very lucky with the persons I am privileged to SRT cave with. 

geoff

www.wcms.org.uk 

 

[JB]

If you like courses and are keen to invest in a bit of training, why not! I've been on a good training course with Nigel Ball in the past and I work with Phil Baker who's based in Derbyshire but also runs courses in the Dales. Both good blokes with years of regular teaching experience and I reckon you'd have an excellent course with either. Contact details are on the Association of Caving Instructors website - http://www.caveinstructor.org.uk/.

 

[cave junky]

Kay, I would have a word with Jess about it on Saturday at the Dinner or digging, she will be able to get you what you want.
Ally

 

[Downer]

I am not fond of looking over edges at all and could not bring myself to climb out for my first abseil (from a bridge!) I was then persuaded to climb up the rope instead and found I felt totally secure. I looked down and was amazed to find myself already 20 ft up. No problem! I proceded to the top (anther 70ft) and then abbed down.

The only problem is that, with caves, you usually have to do the down bit first 

I'm just saying you may very well find it feels nice and safe once you're on the rope!

Actually this does raise another point. You can practice a lot of manoevres at a safe height, i.e, only just off the ground, dangling from a tree without going into a cave. Good fun too especially if you have nosy neighbours.

 

[martinr]

I was taught SRT way back in the good old days of Whernside Manor. The course was brilliant - and I am sure I remebered 95% of what I was taught.

I began to teach others, and they probably remebered 95% of the 95% of what I remebered.

When they passed the knowledge on to the next generation, they also rememberd 95% of the 95% of the 95% that I remebered.

In a few short years, we were in danger of remembering nothing of what we were originally taught.

For this reason, I would always say it is fine to begin SRT with your mates, but get some professional training as well. The 5% extra could save your life.

 

[Geoff R]

I was taught SRT way back in the good old days of Whernside Manor. The course was brilliant - and I am sure I remebered 95% of what I was taught.

I began to teach others, and they probably remebered 95% of the 95% of what I remebered.

When they passed the knowledge on to the next generation, they also rememberd 95% of the 95% of the 95% that I remebered.

In a few short years, we were in danger of remembering nothing of what we were originally taught.

For this reason, I would always say it is fine to begin SRT with your mates, but get some professional training as well. The 5% extra could save your life.

A very valid point

I would add in addition that IMHO that it is great if you can then continue and SRT cave with a much more experianced person who is interested to pass on their extensive knowledge and is skilled to do so. This is particularly good if you anyway all happen to enjoy caving together !   

 

[Dep]

Like it 

try it Kay, an Ifor Williams horse trailer with no horses in it and yo on the roof - it rocks on ! 

Add in the horse and  a wasp and I bet it rocks even more!

 

[cap n chris]

cavers would be pleased to slowly introduce you to SRT in a very carefully controlled confidence giving way.

..... having been asked to loan out an SRT kit to a club caver who "had done SRT before" I was somewhat surprised (or was I unsurprised?) to find (a) he didn't know how to put it on and (b) when it was finally on and stood at the pitch head a fellow club caver helpfully said, pointing at the red handle, "when you want to go down push that handle".

 

[Pitlamp]

Chris - I don't know what you are trying to imply but the fact is rescue statistics show that there are not often many SRT accidents, compared with the huge numbers of club cavers who go caving every week very competently. (Are you an instructor, out of interest?)

I am NOT anti instructor - for example I remember spending some time with Dave Elliott early in my own caving career, from whom I learned a great deal. (On that occasion he was kind enough to give me the benefit of his experience without payment, as it happens.) But I cannot accept that someone teaching SRT for payment is necessarily any better at it than a large number of club cavers I know.  There are very serious implications for the world of caving if people start talking like that - for example it has resulted in some very difficult times for certain university clubs in recent years. Paid instruction has a place in UK caves but should never replace normal club best practice.

 

[JB]

cavers would be pleased to slowly introduce you to SRT in a very carefully controlled confidence giving way.

..... having been asked to loan out an SRT kit to a club caver who "had done SRT before" I was somewhat surprised (or was I unsurprised?) to find (a) he didn't know how to put it on and (b) when it was finally on and stood at the pitch head a fellow club caver helpfully said, pointing at the red handle, "when you want to go down push that handle".

I'll be honest Chris, I find it sad when people try to disparage the work that caving volunteers do training new cavers with scaremongering stories. (I'm a club training officer so you can understand how it could hit a raw nerve!). I hear it usually from (some, NOT all) professional instructors. I know you're talking about one instance that you've seen but I could give you many instances of good practice in caving club training. If you've been around the caving fraternity long enough I'm sure you'll have seen that too.