SRT training in Yorkshire Dales

[Brendan]

Naturally - we are in Derbyshire
I use a rack for all my SRT, whether 2m or 200m. I can't say I have any problems with it. when we are teaching novices it depends on what kit we have/are happier with. I am the owner of a new stop, which has been used about 10 times in the past 3 years, whereas I have replaced my rack bars twice in that time, clocking ~150 trips.

 

[cap n chris]

But fundermentally would such qualifications help !

How could they not? (It is worth noting that the suggestion was to attend Level 2/CIC training, not undergo the assessments - therefore the word "qualifications" is not entirely relevant).

Surely just starting level 2 training would not be enough and people would have to fully complete the course before this would have relevance (??)

"Fully complete the course" - you only need to have done the Level 2 training in order to attend CIC training, you do not need to be assessed and pass at Level 2; having completed the CIC training you do not need to do any assessments at all - the training in itself will be very useful.

and indeed if a change was made from a currently "informal basis" of our SRT practice nights would a club actually be incurring increased liabilities, even with such trained person or couple of persons present ?

How can a club be considered to increase its liabilities if it has encouraged people to get trained? Surely it would be reducing its liabilities by showing such a responsible approach?

 

[Geoff R]

Hum, thanks Chris, serious question,  any idea of 

1. likely costs for the complete Level 1 qualification (and first aid?) ?

2. level 2 training ?

3. and later perhaps CIC training ? 

geoff

 

[Stu]

Hum, thanks Chris, serious question,  any idea of 

1. likely costs for the complete Level 1 qualification (and first aid?) ?

2. level 2 training ?

3. and later perhaps CIC training ? 

geoff

Between ?95 - ?150 each for L1 & L2. CIC training ?300 ish.

Down side to this is you could pay for it all and they might fcuk off. BCA do offer grants though.

Another option is to get a bespoke training package for the officials.

 

[paul]

It would seem that the most essential training SRT trainees need is Stop descender use.  It would also seem that this is frequently deficient.  Don't think anyone can argue with that.... or can they?

It would seem that the most essential training SRT trainees need is non-autolock descender use in order to learn how to use a descender properly. Then, if they wish, they can progress to use an autolock descender later.

 

[Geoff R]

Hum, thanks Chris, serious question,  any idea of 

1. likely costs for the complete Level 1 qualification (and first aid?) ?

2. level 2 training ?

3. and later perhaps CIC training ? 

geoff

Between ?95 - ?150 each for L1 & L2. CIC training ?300 ish.

Down side to this is you could pay for it all and they might fcuk off. BCA do offer grants though.

Another option is to get a bespoke training package for the officials.

A group of interested people (rather than just Officials, of which Im not one) could well be possible and worth considering to the full LML level one, plus level 2 training. 

and even if its not possible on a group basis, I may well consider this for just myself - thanks

 

[Downer]

It would seem that the most essential training SRT trainees need is Stop descender use.  It would also seem that this is frequently deficient.  Don't think anyone can argue with that.... or can they?

It would seem that the most essential training SRT trainees need is non-autolock descender use in order to learn how to use a descender properly. Then, if they wish, they can progress to use an autolock descender later.

Hmm, we hear a lot about clutch-and-plummet but what about letting go of the controlling rope if you're distracted or knocked out? It could be you'd be trading one sort of accident for another. Slightly veering off topic, I can't help feeling there should be a way of making sure you have to have some tension in the controlling rope or the whole thing just stops.

 

[paul]

It would seem that the most essential training SRT trainees need is Stop descender use.  It would also seem that this is frequently deficient.  Don't think anyone can argue with that.... or can they?

It would seem that the most essential training SRT trainees need is non-autolock descender use in order to learn how to use a descender properly. Then, if they wish, they can progress to use an autolock descender later.

Hmm, we hear a lot about clutch-and-plummet but what about letting go of the controlling rope if you're distracted or knocked out? It could be you'd be trading one sort of accident for another. Slightly veering off topic, I can't help feeling there should be a way of making sure you have to have some tension in the controlling rope or the whole thing just stops.

Sure, the "deadman's handle" aspect of autolock descenders are great for incidents where the user is knocked unconcious (and I so know if such an incident involving descending into a pool of CO2 in a shaft - luckily the rope was Bluewater and was belayed to a vehicle and someone had the presence of mind to get the vehicle going to pull the individual to the surface) but that is not exactly an everday occurence. Clutch-and plummet incidents seem to happen more often.

Learning to use a non-autolock descender soon trains you to NOT let go of the rope or become distracted. The problem is that in a panic the reflex is to grab anything and grab HARD. This is beneficial when you grab the controlling rope harder and thus slow down your descent but grabbing the autolock's handle at the expense of not holding harder onto the controlling rope is not what you want in an emergency. You cannot train away a reflex...

If you want to progress onto an autolock descender to provide security in the event of being knocked unconscious or really want the ability to stop when letting go, then by all means do so once you have plenty of experience using a non-autolock descender.

Even cheaper for such occasions is to simply add a Prusik loop an wrap it around the controlling rope a few times then clip the two ends together with a krab and then clip this krab to the legloop of your harness. Hold the Prusik loop in your controlling hand and descend as normal. Let go and the Prusik loop takes over and you stop. Pull the loop down the rope and away you go again.


This has been gone through already a few times in other threads.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Was there not a recent post in which someone said they introduced their children to SRT using a fig-8 with lifeline? If this doesn't instill a second nature to keep the rope tensioned, nothing does.

 

[paul]

Was there not a recent post in which someone said they introduced their children to SRT using a fig-8 with lifeline? If this doesn't instill a second nature to keep the rope tensioned, nothing does.

I think the yawning chasm beneath you and the fear of falling plays some part in the process...

At least it did with me the first time I did an abseil. And it was using a Sticht plate on a rope attached to a couple of very thin pieces of wire, attached to a small piece of metal jammed in a likely-looking crack, while on a rock-climbing course many years ago.

 

[Chris J]

Have you considered getting one (or more) of your most accomplished members trained to a professional level (they don't need to do any assessments, other than the LCLA Level 1, in order to be accepted on LCLA 2 training which is a precursor to CIC training)?

ARGGHHH !!!

NO! NO! NO!

Want to set a precedent that training should only be given by instructors?? If lots of clubs start doing this it would become standard practice - and therefore it would be forced on the rest of us!!

Especially scary for Uni clubs!!!!

Old NCA guidelines for University clubs

"Traditionally the NCA sees formal leadership systems as undesirable in recreational caving conducted by adults, which should have as its essence, individual competence and the companionship of friends unfettered by unnecessary rules and regulations"

"Qualifications for leaders such as the NCA Cave Instructor Certificate (CIC) or Local Cave/Mine Leader Assessment (LCMLA) schemes were not intended for recreational caving and are not considered appropriate within the club environment. However, the syllabuses are excellent guides to training and standards of personal competence within the club environment."

Wisely written words! I don't want to see caving become like diving, keep these qualifications where they belong - in professional caving!!

 

[Peter Burgess]

Chris J 

 

[Stu]

Chris J 

Why  ?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Cos I agree with him and I'm allowed to agree with him and express my agreement with him in an appropriate way. 

 

[Downer]

Definitely not a Stop vs Bobbin thread!

The prussik is a good idea, why isn't it standard? I'll play with one some time and no doubt find out

 

[Stu]

Cos I agree with him and I'm allowed to agree with him and express my agreement with him in an appropriate way. 

Without doubt... but don't you think ChrisJ is very close to shooting himself in the foot?

Quote from: cap 'n chris on Today at 08:22:34 am
Have you considered getting one (or more) of your most accomplished members trained to a professional level (they don't need to do any assessments, other than the LCLA Level 1, in order to be accepted on LCLA 2 training which is a precursor to CIC training)?


ARGGHHH !!!

NO! NO! NO!

Want to set a precedent that training should only be given by instructors?? If lots of clubs start doing this it would become standard practice - and therefore it would be forced on the rest of us!!

Especially scary for Uni clubs!!!!

Old NCA guidelines for University clubs

"Traditionally the NCA sees formal leadership systems as undesirable in recreational caving conducted by adults, which should have as its essence, individual competence and the companionship of friends unfettered by unnecessary rules and regulations"

"Qualifications for leaders such as the NCA Cave Instructor Certificate (CIC) or Local Cave/Mine Leader Assessment (LCMLA) schemes were not intended for recreational caving and are not considered appropriate within the club environment. However, the syllabuses are excellent guides to training and standards of personal competence within the club environment."

Wisely written words! I don't want to see caving become like diving, keep these qualifications where they belong - in professional caving!!

 

[paul]

Definitely not a Stop vs Bobbin thread!

The prussik is a good idea, why isn't it standard? I'll play with one some time and no doubt find out

I may not be standard in caving but I was shown it as  a technique on a rock-climbing course many years ago.

A Prusik (a metre or so of around 6mm cord tied in a loop) loop is a very handy thing to have with you at all times. As well as protecting descents, as described above, you could use it to replace a jammer when pusiking (new where did  that name come from ) and even hang it around your neck under your oversuit with a knife attached (which you should also have ready whenever you are involved with SRT), as I do!

 

[Downer]

A Prusik (a metre or so of around 6mm cord tied in a loop) loop is a very handy thing to have with you at all times. As well as protecting descents, as described above, you could use it to replace a jammer when pusiking (new where did  that name come from ) and even hang it around your neck under your oversuit with a knife attached (which you should also have ready whenever you are involved with SRT), as I do!

I know I'm going to regret this but what's the knife for?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Without doubt... but don't you think ChrisJ is very close to shooting himself in the foot?

Err, no, not really.

 

[paul]

A Prusik (a metre or so of around 6mm cord tied in a loop) loop is a very handy thing to have with you at all times. As well as protecting descents, as described above, you could use it to replace a jammer when pusiking (new where did  that name come from ) and even hang it around your neck under your oversuit with a knife attached (which you should also have ready whenever you are involved with SRT), as I do!

I know I'm going to regret this but what's the knife for?

Obviously, cutting the rope.

Hopefully intentionally and usually because you need to cut the rope during a mid-rope rescue, etc.