SRT training in Yorkshire Dales

[Les W]

I would add that SRT (basic, safe progression) is not actually very complicated. Teaching somebody to climb ropes and abseil safely is quite easy, as there are only a few techniques to learn, ie. passing a rebelay, deviation, traverse, change over, etc.

There are fairly hard and fast rules for these manoeuvers (short cows tail on descent, long one on ascent for instance, or always move your chest jammer first) and it is normal for most people to get the basics quite quickly.

Basic SRT isn't difficult, even students work it out eventually 

 

[Downer]

I would add that SRT (basic, safe progression) is not actually very complicated. Teaching somebody to climb ropes and abseil safely is quite easy, as there are only a few techniques to learn, ie. passing a rebelay, deviation, traverse, change over, etc.

There are fairly hard and fast rules for these manoeuvers (short cows tail on descent, long one on ascent for instance, or always move your chest jammer first) and it is normal for most people to get the basics quite quickly.

Basic SRT isn't difficult, even students work it out eventually 

Stone the crows, I was just going to say the same thing! Only I was thinking there's a basic safety principle to SRT, the rest is just manoevering which, if you get it wrong, you can always undo (unless you do that trick with a jammer hard up against a belay or knot!) The safety principle is always to have a solid connection to the rope or a backed up belay: one cowstail, one descender, two jammers. It takes the worry out of the whole thing if you can always be 100% certain that you're safe.

I'm rusty though. How do you pass a knot moving your chest jammer first?

 

[damian]

I'm rusty though. How do you pass a knot moving your chest jammer first?

With extreme difficulty!

Completely agree with Downer and Les, though. Provided people learn proper cowstail work (including taking considerable care over which way the gates are pointing) first, then they are very unlikely to kill themselves going up, or doing other manouvres. The problem still remains with abseiling, though ... but if we're not careful, we'll be starting the Simple/Stop debate again!

 

[Geoff R]

Ive just returned tonight from our clubs 2 hour SRT gym session.
We have always believed that this has to be an opportunity to practice and is NOT an instruction session.
Reason = liability if something should regretfully go wrong; none of us are qualified instructors. 
Ive always believed that in our practice nights we would be treading a very fine line over the liability question if we gave any form of club instruction 

Am I right or wrong ??    :-\

Can unqualified (but perhaps fully competent) members of caving clubs provide instruction reasonably safe in law ? 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Club membership may not be relevant.

 

[Peter Burgess]

A thought: I suspect that most people reading this are not qualified to provide relevant sound legal advice, any more than most of us have a qualification to provide SRT training.

 

[Geoff R]

But this forum is populated with good people who may know !

 

[Geoff R]

and I assume other Clubs have considered this question 

 

[Les W]

You can be negligent without being in a club.

If you give advice which you know to be incorrect or not best practice you could be seen as negligent. In this case ignorance is bliss. If you profess to be "the club training officer" then you really should be sure your advice is sound and accurate and also current best practice. If you are a layman offering advice such as "why don't you try it like this, etc. you can argue that you had no better knowledge and hopfully prove that you were not negligent as you didn't know any better.

On a plus point, I am unaware of any case of negligence being successfully bought against a club training officer or other caving official.

The best defence is to only offer advice and training that you know to be current best practice.

 

[Dep]

...
Can unqualified (but perhaps fully competent) members of caving clubs provide instruction reasonably safe in law ? 

They can certainly do so more easily if they call it 'advice' and not 'instruction'...

If you already have a good informal working arrangement (and I know that you do) then keep to it.
Don't scratch beneath the surface - don't open cans of worms.
If it ain't broke don't try to fix it!

 

[cap n chris]

Have you considered getting one (or more) of your most accomplished members trained to a professional level (they don't need to do any assessments, other than the LCLA Level 1, in order to be accepted on LCLA 2 training which is a precursor to CIC training)?

 

[Downer]

"In summary then, Mrs Jones died of tetanus contracted while planting a rose bush. It is not disputed that she was instructed by the defendent on matters of digging, fertilising and watering. The defendant claims that he also advised her to use gloves. However, no formal training was offered. Indeed, the defendent does not hold a current Gardening Instructor's Licence. Therefore the question for this court to decide is whether, acting as an unqualified amateur, the defendant assumed a level of expertise not warrented by his claimed 30 years practical experience, and thus, no doubt inadvertently, encouraged Mrs Jones to take undue risks. The salient facts are these. Credible witnesses say that Mrs Jones was seen handling the plant without gloves, an unfortunate mistake that has cost her her life. This mistake would have been avoided if she had been professionally trained rather than merely given some off-hand advice over the garden fence. The court therefore finds that the defendent failed to exercise due care as required by law. It is my duty to instruct the jury to find the defendent guilty of negligence and manslaughter. Take him down."

 

[Geoff R]

Have you considered getting one (or more) of your most accomplished members trained to a professional level (they don't need to do any assessments, other than the LCLA Level 1, in order to be accepted on LCLA 2 training which is a precursor to CIC training)?

In sure I know a Club that has the funds to take this route if the Committee and interested members so wished, for a small group. I dont see members paying for all this themselves but I have no idea if a club would have any interest what so ever, if it had other funding directions in mind.
 
But fundermentally would such qualifications help !

Surely just starting level 2 training would not be enough and people would have to fully complete the course before this would have relevance (??) and indeed if a change was made from a currently "informal basis" of our SRT practice nights would a club actually be incurring increased liabilities, even with such trained person or couple of persons present ?

My interest here is to see more members take up SRT and my though is that a more formalized training course could help kick start this.

To Downers post I would add an alternative ...... if Mrs Jones was attending a rose planting course as she and the  instructor knew that one prick from this deadly rose and Mrs Jones would at best be in hospital; and Mrs Jones was doing a trial planting of her rose under the direct watchful eye of her "instructor" .....and the glove was missing .....and .... 

 

 

[Downer]

To Downers post I would add an alternative ...... if Mrs Jones was attending a rose planting course as she and the  instructor knew that one prick from this deadly rose and Mrs Jones would at best be in hospital; and Mrs Jones was doing a trial planting of her rose under the direct watchful eye of her "instructor" .....and the glove was missing .....and ....   

It certainly raises the possibility that "if someone has an accident even after taking a course, then it must be the training that's at fault". Crazy.

Pah! In matters where I do know my stuff (not necessarily caving), I shall continue to give "advice" and if anyone wants to kill themselves and then sue me, bring 'em on.

 

[Geoff R]

It certainly raises the possibility that "if someone has an accident even after taking a course, then it must be the training that's at fault". Crazy.

EXCELLENT thought - Im off to sue my driving instructor 

 

[Downer]

It certainly raises the possibility that "if someone has an accident even after taking a course, then it must be the training that's at fault". Crazy.

EXCELLENT thought - Im off to sue my driving instructor   

Go for it! Don't forget, my commission for that advice is 40%.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I would disagree with the assertion that there are very few SRT accidents.  Abseiling accidents are SRT accidents, and they are disturbingly common.  The subject of the Petzl Stop has been discussed exhaustively on several threads.  It would seem that the most essential training SRT trainees need is Stop descender use.  It would also seem that this is frequently deficient.  Don't think anyone can argue with that.... or can they?

 

[Brendan]

It would seem that the most essential training SRT trainees need is Stop descender use.  It would also seem that this is frequently deficient.  Don't think anyone can argue with that.... or can they?

Use a rack and teach novices to as well 

 

[cap n chris]

Brendan, your novices frequently do pitches in excess of 100m, then?

 

[cap n chris]

I would disagree with the assertion that there are very few SRT accidents. 

Indeed; wasn't there one just last week at County Pot?
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,4690.0.html