which carabiners for anchors

[mikem]

Cowstails have snapped in via ferrata situations, where sliding down a (usually) steel cable has created more than factor 2 fall, so could feasibly happen in an extremely unlucky / incompetent caving context, but unlikely. However, as pointed out earlier, we do regularly rely on only one cowstail during changeovers on traverses - again, fortunately, they are rarely in life threating positions.

If all caves were bolted to exactly the same standard then you could safely use snaps, but they aren't & you have to consider what is the consequence of "this particular bolt" failing & will the rest of the team check that krabs are all hanging correctly after they've passed them? May as well use locking ones ...

 

[pwhole]

If you tie your cowstails with with two overhand knots forming a short central loop (rope-access style), you don't have to rely on only one during traverses, and it makes them very easy to pass if your main hang is the short loop, as you're so close to the rope. I've been doing it like this for a decade, and apart from two knots on the D-ring and half a metre more rope used, I can't think of any other reason why not to tie them like this. This essentially gives you four cowstails if you include the hand-jammer rope, also dynamic.

 

[Fjell]

Cowstails have snapped in via ferrata situations, where sliding down a (usually) steel cable has created more than factor 2 fall, so could feasibly happen in an extremely unlucky / incompetent caving context, but unlikely. However, as pointed out earlier, we do regularly rely on only one cowstail during changeovers on traverses - again, fortunately, they are rarely in life threating positions.

If all caves were bolted to exactly the same standard then you could safely use snaps, but they aren't & you have to consider what is the consequence of "this particular bolt" failing & will the rest of the team check that krabs are all hanging correctly after they've passed them? May as well use locking ones ...

If you can snap a 10 or 11mm climbing rope from a straight pull, then you will very likely be broken in half in the incident, the shock load will be enormous. Best to avoid such situations. The kit is designed to make FF2 survivable, not more than that.

To re-iterate, you should never have one point of contact. On a blank traverse where you are passing bolts you need to use a third cowstail as a safety. I use the dynamic safety link to my top jammer which has a krab on the end. The D is the common point, and that is designed to be loaded in all directions. I agree that any single krab is vulnerable to cross loading. On a rebelay down, the long cowstail is supposed to be clipped somewhere until you are ready to proceed. There is no manoeuvre that leaves you on one point of contact except for some rescue techniques, and even then I would modify them to have two (hanging from a jammer).

 

[Babyhagrid]

To re-iterate, you should never have one point of contact. There is no manoeuvre that leaves you on one point of contact except for some rescue techniques, and even then I would modify them to have two (hanging from a jammer).

Except descending. Where you are attached through a single carabineer to your descender??

 

[pwhole]

Yes, but it's a bit late by then for any changes. You wouldn't sanely descend without checking first with at least one of your cowstails clipped in, so if you're still unsure after that it's probably best to give up SRT. I was hanging off my stopper knot in a very deep shaft the other day, but the belay above was realistically the only part of the system that I needed to have faith in, as there wasn't much else I could do down there to make it any safer.

 

[mikem]

Still generally hanging on only one rope - H&S tried to introduce two, but sensibly decided that in our case it was more likely to end up in entanglements.

Of course the French system of using long cowstail on hand ascender does reduce options.

 

[Fjell]

Except descending. Where you are attached through a single carabineer to your descender??

Then you are taking the risk of the krab just snapping in the axial load direction, which has never happened that I am aware of.

I use a Handy and I have fond thoughts it might keep you alive if the main descender failed and the rope was in the V - it would certainly hang up on any rebelay or deviation and is surprisingly strong (2000kg?). It is one of a number of reasons I am averse to using the krab you are hanging on as a friction device, which I just don’t get the upside of.

 

[mikem]

The biggest risk is the rope being cut through when you are descending / ascending or traversing between bolts.

Using your main krab for friction also means you are increasing the wear on the side (& shortening the life) of your abseil device

 

[JoshW]

To re-iterate, you should never have one point of contact. On a blank traverse where you are passing bolts you need to use a third cowstail as a safety

This seems massively overkill for the minimal time when passing a bolt it’s insane. Not taught at all anywhere that I’ve seen, and you’re the first person I’ve ever seen use the word ‘need’ in this situation. Certainly seen people say you *can* use a third cowstail as safety, but need- that’s paranoia at it’s finest

 

[mikem]

It's not insane in UK as you generally have a third lanyard attached to your hand jammer - however, it's not normally required as you're either on a secure ledge or hanging from the cowstail, so it's not going to unclip.

 

[Babyhagrid]

I've seen quite a lot of people that use a maillon to connect their footloops to their handjammer. Which can't be used as a third

It's not insane in UK as you generally have a third lanyard attached to your hand jammer - however, it's not normally required as you're either on a secure ledge or hanging from the cowstail, so it's not going to unclip.

 

[mikem]

Of course you can, by clipping a krab to the maillon (or knot)

 

[Babyhagrid]

Of course you can, by clipping a krab to the maillon (or knot)

But why not just use a crab to connect the handjammer to the footloops in the first place

 

[mikem]

I do, it makes it much easier to remove the jammer when you want to use it for hauling (until the krab jams, in which case you'd be better off spannering a maillon)

 

[Mark Wright]

Surely every single vertical or horizontal SRT manoeuvre is carried out with only one point of attachment.

We wear a single harness connected with a single 'D' M/R (or similar) and our chest ascender, top ascender security cord/rope, descender and cows tails are all attached to it.

I'm not aware of any accidents involving cows tails breaking on a via ferrata, or anywhere else for that matter, and would have thought the most likely failure on a via ferrata would be the carabiner when it is potentially abnormally loaded when it hits the next anchor supporting the cable in upwards of a FF5 fall!!

Neither am I aware of any harnesses, carabiners, ascenders or descenders failing during normal use.

I am aware of numerous incidents in the work place where the central 'D' M/R has not been closed correctly before use. In one case, a very experienced rope access technician (and caver) forgot to screw it up after lunch and after suffering a short fall over the edge of a 21 storey building (different storey) it completely opened up. He only survived the fall because the threaded section of his M/R jammed into his cow's tail rope and somehow jammed into the harness attachment and held. He was very lucky and quickly made himself safe. This was in the days before the modern industrial harnesses and before IRATA was formed. We always used 2 x M/R's after this incident.

In the workplace M/R's are generally considered to be for where a more permanent attachment is required, e.g., scaffolders full body harness and sternal attached energy absorbing lanyard. Most of the new Petzl industrial harnesses do not require any M/R's to make ascender or other such attachments.

Nearly all the fatalities in the rope access industry have been caused by the working rope being cut due to a sharp edge and either the back-up device not working or the back-up rope also failing. Appropriately placed re-belays and deviations should be a suitable control measure to minimise this hazard in a cave.

I don't remember entanglements being a reason the HSE accepted the outdoor pursuits industry could use a single rope, but there were many good reasons. I sat on a HSE work at height committee when the 2007 amendment to the Work at Height Regs. came out and the person who wrote it (who headed up our committee) made it very clear that if the failure of a single point of attachment resulted in a serious accident or worse, the HSE would throw the book at them and likely result in a much smaller outdoor pursuits industry due to the likely significantly increased insurance premiums that would follow.

I've been using a Petzl Omni Triact since they first came out as my central attachment and an OK Oval Triact for my Stop and have never had any issues with them at all. They've certainly had plenty of Derbyshire mud plastered all over them. I always give them a good clean and a thorough examination after each trip. In industry a triple action carabiner connector would always be regarded as the safest.

Double action twist lock connectors are the ones to avoid. I've seen plenty of these come undone during use and there is evidence of them failing catastrophically, as was the case with the Noel Edmunds incident many years ago.

A 'Thorough Examination' of cow's tails should always include untying the knots. If they are going to fail at all it will always be at the knot.

Depending on how much caving I'm doing I would usually change all my textiles out every 3 or so years. Metal items (subject to a successful thorough examination) are good forever.

I use a Petzl Dual Connect Adjust lanyard instead of traditional cow's tails with Sm'D screw gate carabiners on the ends of them. I rarely screw them up but occasionally appreciate the extra security they can provide. It only takes a second to screw them up.

I would never consider using a snap gate for rigging though. I've seen on numerous occasions carabiners and M/R's being twisted in the anchor at a re-belay when somebody climbs above it. I've done that myself on more than one occasion. It would be really easy for a single action connector to disconnect itself!!

As for the extra weight of screw gate or other double or triple action connectors being an argument for not choosing them, give over. You've probably got 100g of mud stuck to the bottom of each welly!!

Mark

 

[andrewmcleod]

This seems massively overkill for the minimal time when passing a bolt it’s insane. Not taught at all anywhere that I’ve seen, and you’re the first person I’ve ever seen use the word ‘need’ in this situation. Certainly seen people say you *can* use a third cowstail as safety, but need- that’s paranoia at it’s finest

So I have demonstrated/'taught' this (and seen other people demonstrate this) but I don't _do_ this because I have twistlock cowstails. If I ended up with snapgate cowstails I might do this. If I was securely on the ground while doing the traverse, I would consider the ground the second point of attachment and not bother. If I was on some sort of sketchy traverse...

As mentioned earlier in the thread, unclipping in this scenario has happened (to someone I know).

Equally I think it's entirely reasonable for informed and aware individuals to use two snapgates, a system used extensively in many caving countries with only a very small number of accidents and some benefits in terms of speed and reduced risk of getting stuck if a locking gate fails closed.

 

[michael.11]

I've seen on numerous occasions carabiners and M/R's being twisted in the anchor at a re-belay when somebody climbs above it

This specific case does not pose a life threatening situation. Because if a climber below is already on the rope - there is no way the loaded snap gate can unclip. And if he isn't - then in the worst case he is going to "skip" a re-belay and climb towards the next one.

 

[mikem]

I'm not aware of any accidents involving cows tails breaking on a via ferrata, or anywhere else for that matter, and would have thought the most likely failure on a via ferrata would be the carabiner when it is potentially abnormally loaded when it hits the next anchor supporting the cable in upwards of a FF5 fall!!

...

Mark

It's difficult to find much data on via ferrata, but in Austria from 2008 to 2018:
"Do-it-yourself safety equipment (e.g., slings, ropes) led to lethal falls in five cases and torn harness anchor slings in four cases."

Mortality in Via Ferrata Emergencies in Austria from 2008 to 2018 - PMC

Although the European Alps now have more than 1000 via ferratas, limited data exist on the actual incidence of fatal events in via ferratas and their causes. This retrospective study analysed data from a registry maintained by the Austrian Alpine ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This shows a sling & rope totally failing in test, whilst specialist lanyards hold with varying degrees of damage (the krabs remained intact):

I found the link to this video on (written before the above report was compiled):

Via Ferrata Accidents – what you don’t know might hurt you

If someone asked me what causes accidents on via ferrate, I would only be able to make a few informed guesses. This is because there is surprisingly little readily accessible information on why acc…

thesevereclimber.com

The report notes that more accidents occur on easier ground, where a slip is unlikely to result in freefall, so those sorts of forces are thankfully rarely encountered.

 

[mikem]

This specific case does not pose a life threatening situation. Because if a climber below is already on the rope - there is no way the loaded snap gate can unclip. And if he isn't - then in the worst case he is going to "skip" a re-belay and climb towards the next one.

But they then probably have to do a knot pass, which some people aren't very good at, & it may also have put the rope in a less optimum (possibly dangerous) position for ascent. As I've already mentioned, if the cave is perfectly rigged it wouldn't be a problem, but very few actually are.

And if it's the last bolt above the floor / a ledge & the krab unclips as they start ascending (because it's rotated) then it could result in spinal injury (which has occurred due to bolt failure)

 

[phizz4]

Double action twist lock connectors are the ones to avoid. I've seen plenty of these come undone during use and there is evidence of them failing catastrophically, as was the case with the Noel Edmunds incident many years ago.

My understanding of the accident is that the participant undid the krab, panicked, tried to re-attach himself and was unable to operate the krab. I didn't think that the krab actually failed.