Author Topic: Chilean Mine Rescue  (Read 12894 times)

Offline AndyF

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Chilean Mine Rescue
« on: October 07, 2010, 07:32:41 pm »

Hope this all goes well...

What i don't know though, is why they didn't/couldn't juet dig through the collapsed roadway down the mine? Surely it would have been quicker?

Maybe the pics on the web sites aren't giving the true picture....
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Offline graham

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2010, 07:40:41 pm »
You'd need to know far more about the local geology than, I suspect, anyone on here, before being able to answer that question.
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Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 09:29:04 pm »
There's a thread on Aditnow on the subject.

I recall there being a number of collapses, some pretty big, so a completely new route being the best option.

I'm impressed they're drilling 3 new shafts in parallel, much better than putting all your eggs in one basket.

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Offline AndyF

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2010, 10:44:48 pm »
I guess it will be interesting to see if they get the mine back into production faster than it took to drill the shafts... :shrug:
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Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2010, 07:54:34 am »
The company is in financial straits, as the miners on the surface haven't been paid and have been marching in protest!

So I suspect this is the end for this particular mine.

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Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2010, 10:20:20 am »
There was a good Flash thing on the BBC website yesterday. They seem to have had a big spiral roadway down to the working area.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11485392

Offline peterk

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2010, 12:04:32 pm »
The BBC's article shows the debris from the shaft widening  falling down the pilot hole.  Unless the shafts are breaking out in the top of a large stope then the miners will have to shift over 400 m^3 of spoil for each shaft.

Offline AndyF

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2010, 09:05:48 pm »
The company is in financial straits, as the miners on the surface haven't been paid and have been marching in protest!

So I suspect this is the end for this particular mine.

Chris.

Might be the end for the mining company, but its a gold mine I think so someone will start it up again...!


But  Idon't get it.... the animation saya the collapse are is at 510m.

So why bore holes down to 700m, instead of intersecting the tunnel just after the 510m collapse area? Probably just a misleading animation, but it does seem odd.
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2010, 08:44:39 pm »
There seems to be a lot of ballyhoo about lifting them out. They have to stay standing for an hour to be hauled up. I think SRT'ing out of (eg) Golondrinas might be more stressful. It would be for me!

Offline AndyF

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 11:38:21 pm »
The consequences of getting "wedged" would be horrific.... apparently there is a trap door in the bottom and a rope so they can lower themselves back down.... 

500m pitch 2 feet diameter? Not very appealing.

Hope it goes well...fingers crossed ...

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Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2010, 09:48:10 am »
I'm disappointed that the media can't seem to give us an accurate description of the mine and more detailed information regarding the drilling procedures.

Nevertheless I think the drilling of the rescue shaft in such a rapid time and to such accuracy is a fantastic achievement. The size of the rescue pod and the depth from which the miners have to be pulled up from has given my (non-caving) friends the heeby-jeebies!
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Offline SamT

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2010, 10:44:02 am »

500m pitch 2 feet diameter? Not very appealing.


 A few electron ladders and just back and foot up it !!  :doubt:

Offline bagpuss

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2010, 07:06:01 pm »
I hope it all goes well tomorrow, wouldn't envy the rescue people going down to help co-ordinate the rescue.

Offline T pot 2

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2010, 08:22:35 am »
I have been watching the extraction of the Chilean miners on the BBC early this morning. What a feat of engineering in order to achieve this. Precision drilling in the extreme. I am stunned at the stamina and the resolve of the Chilean people to achieve this end result.

My thoughts are with the miners and familys caught up in this.

Well done to all concerned !!

Three cheers ! 

Hip Hooray !  :beer2:

Hip Hooray !  :beer2:

Hip Hooray !  :beer2:

Offline AndyF

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2010, 08:46:22 am »
I hope they can make enough money from TV interviews and books that they never have to go back down a mine... It has the possibility of raising all of the families out of poverty.

Good effort by all concerned.
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Offline graham

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2010, 10:28:23 am »
7 of them out now. Hope it keeps going well.
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Offline whitelackington

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2010, 11:52:17 am »
I hope the World's mining industry will learn all the lessons of these events.
One possible lesson might be to pre-drill the escape shaft and line it,
 (soon after the first ton of mineral has been brought to the surface).

Apparently submariners are trained in sub-sea rescue before they go for their first trip.
If the rescue shaft was created first and the miners were trained first,
they could have been evacuated after the first three weeks.

Offline khakipuce

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2010, 12:27:39 pm »
If they knew where to put the rescue shaft, that would kind of indicate that they knew where the collapse was going to happen, so probably better to prevent the collapse  :shrug:

Offline graham

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2010, 12:50:03 pm »
Only Whitlackington could expect you dig a rescue shaft into a mine before you've actually dug the mine.

Quote
One possible lesson might be to pre-drill the escape shaft and line it,
 (soon after the first ton of mineral has been brought to the surface).

A ton of material takes up just a couple of cubic metres of space, so the rescue shaft would be errm, right on top of the original access shaft.
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Offline SamT

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2010, 01:41:30 pm »
I hope the World's mining industry will learn all the lessons of these events.
One possible lesson might be to pre-drill the escape shaft and line it,
 (soon after the first ton of mineral has been brought to the surface).

Apparently submariners are trained in sub-sea rescue before they go for their first trip.
If the rescue shaft was created first and the miners were trained first,
they could have been evacuated after the first three weeks.

 :wall:  :shrug:  ::)

I can only hope that WL's post was tongue in cheek and we all missed the humour.

Offline whitelackington

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2010, 03:22:05 pm »
No, not tongue in cheek.
We all know mining is a very dangerous trade.
Maybe during the initial stages of the Industrial Revolution, it was thought reasonable to take big risks
but now that PHASE has passed, miners safety should be much more important.
This mine had previously been closed in 2007 because of a not very good safety record.
It was reopened because of the insatiable desire of China for copper.

my point is,
if mines ( after the lode has been tested for viability)
had a preexisting rescue shaft,
if miners had training for using that rescue shaft.

If there was then a collapse, the rescue period may be shortened.
Obviously this would put extra costs on the mine but surely the workers lives are worth more than copper?

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2010, 03:55:41 pm »
I thought mines in the UK had to have a second entrance / exit by law, for precisely this reason?

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Offline Bob Smith

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2010, 05:09:10 pm »
A ton of material takes up just a couple of cubic metres of space, so the rescue shaft would be errm, right on top of the original access shaft.

Come on Graham, a ton of material takes up less than 1 cubic metre of space  :tease: (unless its specific gravity is less than 1 of course) but your point still stands :hug:

These careless mine owners should quantify all the intangibles before embarking on projects, this way they could manage the colapses in advance.... ::)

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2010, 06:31:34 pm »
Should we build a second planet Earth so that when the asteroid is on its way we can quickly hop over to the replacement and avoid the worst excesses of fiery armageddon? The cost of the exercise would be amply justified by the lives saved.

Offline Wolfart

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Chilean miners
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2010, 06:56:54 pm »
 Congrats to the Chilean's for rescuing the miners at long last after all that time
 :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:
On that note wasn't there some discussion some time ago about putting a bore hole into Darren ?
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Offline AndyF

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2010, 06:59:40 pm »
I thought mines in the UK had to have a second entrance / exit by law, for precisely this reason?

Chris.

This is true (mostly). Mines in the UK generally have to have two independent entrances (two very adjacent shafts doesn't always count) although some small drift mines can be exempt. Its been like this since the 1860's I think.

Apparently there was a second entrance to the mine, a ventilation shaft, but it became unstable and had its ladders missing.

Wiki has quite a good description of the accident and steps taken, much better than the media has provided..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Copiap%C3%B3_mining_accident
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Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2010, 07:17:49 pm »
So actually, if they'd maintained the ventilation shaft, and not permitted mining to take place unless the ventilation shaft was usable, there would have been no rescue.

Maybe WL has a point  :-\

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Offline AndyF

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2010, 08:32:56 pm »
Maybe WL has a point  :-\
::)

Well yes.... but:

Quote
Obviously this would put extra costs on the mine but surely the workers lives are worth more than copper?

The brutal truth is that copper is worth more to the mine owners.  :doubt: Mining is a worldwide business, if you have standards and another country in Africa or Russia does not then their copper is cheaper. You are out of business and your miners are out of a job.

The UK still has lots of resources, but UK regulations makes most of them non-viable to extract.

 Only import protectionism would allow the UK to do the mining, and that just won't happen.

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Offline AndyF

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Re: Chilean miners
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2010, 08:34:37 pm »
Congrats to the Chilean's for rescuing the miners at long last after all that time
 :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:
On that note wasn't there some discussion some time ago about putting a bore hole into Darren ?

Wouldn't that count as a second entrance....  :spank:
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Offline Les W

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Re: Chilean miners
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2010, 08:36:54 pm »
Congrats to the Chilean's for rescuing the miners at long last after all that time
 :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:
On that note wasn't there some discussion some time ago about putting a bore hole into Darren ?

Wouldn't that count as a second entrance....  :spank:

Fourth entrance actually (or even fifth entrance if you're counting Elm Hole and Pwll y cwm as two)  :smartass:
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2010, 11:01:29 pm »
Am I the only one to think that some of this has all got  OTT.  From the medical point of view people have spend longer periods underground without harm. You don't have to go further than Cheddar Gorge for that! There was an indirect reference to the Floyd Collins incident in the Guardian letters page today which said it all.  Yes, an impressive rescue from the engineering point of view but why does it have be so hyped. Something nasty somewhere else happening we should know about?

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2010, 11:34:25 pm »
I think that it appeals to people's (non cavers that is) worst nightmares, being retrieved through a 2' wide tube half a mile long! In any case I thought the capsule (or it's spungloaded wheels) would be well knackered by now having travelled 20 miles or so.


Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2010, 08:17:56 am »
Am I the only one to think that some of this has all got  OTT.  From the medical point of view people have spend longer periods underground without harm. You don't have to go further than Cheddar Gorge for that! There was an indirect reference to the Floyd Collins incident in the Guardian letters page today which said it all.  Yes, an impressive rescue from the engineering point of view but why does it have be so hyped. Something nasty somewhere else happening we should know about?

Please expand - I'm not aware of any unintended incidents at Cheddar that have lasted longer than this one?

Anyway, it's a good news story, which makes a magnificent change from all the doom & gloom that dominates the news normally.

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Offline graham

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2010, 08:38:39 am »
Am I the only one to think that some of this has all got  OTT.  From the medical point of view people have spend longer periods underground without harm. You don't have to go further than Cheddar Gorge for that! There was an indirect reference to the Floyd Collins incident in the Guardian letters page today which said it all.  Yes, an impressive rescue from the engineering point of view but why does it have be so hyped. Something nasty somewhere else happening we should know about?

Please expand - I'm not aware of any unintended incidents at Cheddar that have lasted longer than this one?

Anyway, it's a good news story, which makes a magnificent change from all the doom & gloom that dominates the news normally.

Chris.

Pete was thinking of David Lafferty who reputedly spent 130 days in Gough's Cave. Unintended incidents at Cheddar don't last anywhere near as long. Just ask C**** C***** who managed two in one day.

Anyway, they are all out now so the cynics can find something else to moan about.
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Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2010, 10:02:43 am »
Pete was thinking of David Lafferty who reputedly spent 130 days in Gough's Cave. Unintended incidents at Cheddar don't last anywhere near as long. Just ask C**** C***** who managed two in one day.

Ah, so entirely different then. Comparing a planned record-breaking underground stay (presumably with sufficient necessities), and an unplanned mine collapse with totally inadequate provisions and the psychological effects of the likelyhood of a prolonged death by starvation.......... Apples & apples.

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Offline Les W

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2010, 10:52:59 am »
Unintended incidents at Cheddar don't last anywhere near as long. Just ask C**** C***** who managed two in one day.

 :spank:

 :lol: :lol: 
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Offline Roger W

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2010, 10:58:48 am »
Anyway, it's great news that they got them all out safely!
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Offline Roger W

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2010, 11:04:18 am »
Regarding certain other thoughts and suggestions in this thread...

Surely whenever you get people digging/tunneling mining away from open passage (however many entrances there may be to said open passage) there may be some possibility or danger that a roof fall or other event may trap them at the end of their tunnel?

So should all you cave diggers ensure your own safety by having an escape route dug from the surface to wherever you are digging to before you start digging?      :)
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Offline Les W

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2010, 12:01:50 pm »
So should all you cave diggers ensure your own safety by having an escape route dug from the surface to wherever you are digging to before you start digging?      :)

It's a good point. I will raise it at the next BCA council meeting. I'm sure with the right lobbying of government we can get it into UK law in the next session of Parliament.     :-\
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2010, 01:53:46 pm »
I thought my posting would prove provocative! I agree that some of the circumstances are different but we do know that just being underground for long periods is not specifically detrimental to your health. Once the miners had been located they had the advantage of being orientated in time, able to communicate with family and be provided with medication.  I heard talk of vision problems from being underground, decompression issues (people always ask why it isn't hot or airless in caves) etc. etc. This is what I meant by OTT. It starts to make you cynical about many things one hears or is told in the press.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2010, 01:58:17 pm »
I see your point (although I suggest it wasn't particularly clear in your first post!). I agree that after contact was made, and provisions were arriving, then yes, punch-ups aside, they could have stayed there for a much longer period.

But until that point, I think it must have been pretty dire.

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Offline graham

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2010, 01:59:31 pm »
Cynical about the press, Pete? You'll be telling me next you don't trust politicians!
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2010, 02:23:15 pm »
My posts tend to be brief so that's why my original point didn't come over. Regarding politicians I think you have to make too many compromises to make it a job I would enjoy and I think they need to be more honest - I find it irritating that they assume the public are idiots. But then as a fellow medic pointed the average IQ is 100 (and I can bet that most posters on this forum are about 30 points higher). Probably being provocative again :spank:

Offline Rhys

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2010, 08:29:30 pm »
Last night on ITV news there was a psychologist talking about the mental damage the miners may suffer. He said they would be haunted by the sounds and smells that they were subjected to in the mine. I thought, what a load of crap. The guys were miners and heard and smelt these things every day! It's not like they suddenly eneded up in a completely alien environment.

To a point Pete, I take your point. I think the rescue was a fanstastic technical achievement though. I would've expected food parcels getting jammed in the supply pipe on a regular basis and also the rescue capsule jamming - that doesn't bear thinking about! Gives me nightmares.

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Offline mrodoc

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2010, 07:43:44 am »
The meejah seem very keen to hype up the physical impact. I couldn't believe it when they had a dentist on PM talking about their potential dental problems.

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2010, 08:50:24 am »
Apparently quite a few of them "thanked god" for their release, rather than the guys who had actually done the work. I'd like to know why he buried the poor sods in the first place and why he reckoned these guys were worth saving but the 214 poor sods killed in the Chilean earthquake back in February were not.
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Offline SamT

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2010, 09:04:54 am »

I think the focus on their physical health has been way OTT. I can understand a few mental problems, like wanting to punch the living daylights out of one of your fellow captives cause he's been annoying the fuck out of you for the last 6 weeks and your trapped in a hole with him.

One of the commentators I heard seemed surprised that they could walk unaided from the capsule.... WTF  :wall:

They've had water, food, light, medical supplies, communication etc - surely a few toothbrushes may have been passed down.

However..
Quote
the rescue capsule jamming

that makes me shudder. Hadn't really thought about that. It wouldn't take much really would it  :unsure:



 

Offline Jopo

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2010, 09:12:39 am »
The meejah seem very keen to hype up the physical impact. I couldn't believe it when they had a dentist on PM talking about their potential dental problems.

Fancy one of the medical profession taking the opportunity of a appearance fee  ::)

Take any bunch of miners ( or any manual workers) - from a relatively poor country -
isolate them for nigh on 70 days and be surprised if the preexisting medical problems they took in with them got worse.
Wonder how many were cured of some sort of addiction?
Imagine it was a bunch of cavers. A gate would have been fitted to the shaft and a committee formed in seconds.

 All the bollocks aside it was a remarkably skilled and successfull rescue and the engineers should be congratulated.
It would be good if that side of the story was published.

Jopo

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2010, 10:30:37 am »

Take any bunch of miners ( or any manual workers) - from a relatively poor country -
isolate them for nigh on 70 days and be surprised if the preexisting medical problems they took in with them got worse.
Wonder how many were cured of some sort of addiction?
Imagine it was a bunch of cavers. A gate would have been fitted to the shaft and a committee formed in seconds.

 All the bollocks aside it was a remarkably skilled and successfull rescue and the engineers should be congratulated.
It would be good if that side of the story was published.

Jopo

The addiction thing is probably true as they were, quite specifically, not supplied with either wine or tobacco

The engineers: the guy who controlled the tunnel, apparently an American, left before the first one came out as he didn't want to be part of the media party as they were rescued.

As for your point about cavers, perhaps we should ask if the rescue rig was covered by their PI insurance?
Caving is for Life not just for Christmas

Offline Jopo

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2010, 11:04:42 am »

Take any bunch of miners ( or any manual workers) - from a relatively poor country -
isolate them for nigh on 70 days and be surprised if the preexisting medical problems they took in with them got worse.
Wonder how many were cured of some sort of addiction?
Imagine it was a bunch of cavers. A gate would have been fitted to the shaft and a committee formed in seconds.

 All the bollocks aside it was a remarkably skilled and successfull rescue and the engineers should be congratulated.
It would be good if that side of the story was published.

Jopo

The addiction thing is probably true as they were, quite specifically, not supplied with either wine or tobacco

The engineers: the guy who controlled the tunnel, apparently an American, left before the first one came out as he didn't want to be part of the media party as they were rescued.

As for your point about cavers, perhaps we should ask if the rescue rig was covered by their PI insurance?

Shit! Never thought of the BCA rake off!

Jopo

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2010, 12:25:46 pm »
Apparently quite a few of them "thanked god" for their release, rather than the guys who had actually done the work. I'd like to know why he buried the poor sods in the first place and why he reckoned these guys were worth saving but the 214 poor sods killed in the Chilean earthquake back in February were not.

Amen (pardon the pun) to that.

Religion always seems to gloss over questions like that!

Chris.
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Mines, caves,
Land Rovers

Offline AndyF

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2010, 05:59:57 pm »
Careful now, you'll get yourself labelled as a "militant athiest"
"Life's a pitch, then you fall down one..."

Offline Goydenman

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Re: Chilean Mine Rescue
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2010, 06:35:02 pm »
Apparently quite a few of them "thanked god" for their release, rather than the guys who had actually done the work. I'd like to know why he buried the poor sods in the first place and why he reckoned these guys were worth saving but the 214 poor sods killed in the Chilean earthquake back in February were not.

Each one that came out hugged the guys that got them out is that not thanks?

 

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