Author Topic: St Valentines Sump  (Read 14545 times)

BenM

  • Guest
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2006, 02:35:56 pm »
Ok:
A) The water level was about 1inch above the top of the pipe in the dam wall
B) I took it in as far as I could (where it sumped), it should still be there now as we left it running
C) The syphon was still running when we returned on our way out (Still had 10cm of water left to syphon)
D) 6m airspace from where the pipe was, to the end of the sump (i.e: We had gained 6m).. but was very tight at the end so didn't fancy pushing it head first!

It really had dried out a lot, a good 6m from the dam was just mud! But that had taken 3h...

There are a few interesting little passages back there, and I was thinking the best way of keeping it easily accessible would be to divert/dam the water that feeds the sump.

I would come and help tomorrow... but I now live in Preston  :furious:.. so unfortunately I can't. Would be good to hear how quickly it fills back up tho!

Ben

Offline jasonbirder

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 726
  • Orpheus Caving Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2006, 02:38:35 pm »
Well...my Mrs will kill me but what the hell...i'll try and be there to give a hand tomorrow...but i only count as half a body as i'm a bit lardy (should I count as 2 bodies perhaps)

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6241
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2006, 02:59:30 pm »
Cool - cheers.

We've got a couple of novices with us so wont be a race.

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6241
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2006, 11:13:23 am »
So - the saga continues.

Bit of an abortion of a trip lastnight due to various late arrivals and no shows (not aimed you Jason).

In the end, we left the hose stashed in the entrance series. I rattled off ahead to start work at the sump whilst JB shepherded my two novice mates down the crabwalk. Cheers JB  :thumbsup:

Sump was back up to the level of the pipe in the dam.

I set about drilling the hole for a resin bolt to attach the pump too.  (id forgotton a mastik gun though - so couldnt use the resin. ( :wall:).

With that accomplished, I rigged up a pull through style system to allow the end of the pipe to be placed or retreived from the deep bit of the sump. It was set up in a bit of a rush so needs a bit of fine tuning. I tried it (set the siphon going - then dragged the hose into the sump) however on its journed into the sump - it 'hovered' up some gravel which got stuck in the entrance to hose. So that needs some thinking about. Think it probably needs some sort of weight ( strip tied to a flat stone perhaps) that will keep the hose down in the deep bit but just off the floor so that gravel and muck doesn't get sucked up.

The lads arrived just as I was packing up, we returned via the windpipe.  Just under 3 hours but at 10;55 - we'd missed the pub. :(

Jason Birder has very generously offered to carry the two rolls of hose down to the sump on thursday night.  :bow: This is stashed in the small blind passage on the left 3 meters before you turn up into the blasted passage on the way in. (the one that I always get confused with the blasted passage). There are two drag cords attached to each hose.

Jason - if it doesnt make it all the way, then no worries - just stash it some where obvious, and let us know via the board where it is. (if anyone else fancys helping it along on its way then cool).


Should be in next week some time to carry on work.

Alan Brentnall

  • Guest
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2006, 11:03:39 pm »
Hi Sam, Keith Joule and I did a round trip tonight, so we took the two hoses with us, and dropped them off at St Vals. Had a look at what you've done so far - looks like it will be a good set up when it's completed. :thumbsup:

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6241
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2006, 09:11:58 am »
Blimey - good effort, thats one each  :bow:

When we pulled the last lot in - it was quite straight forward with one in front pulling, and one behind unsnagging. but I bet one each was a pain. So - I owe you a beer.

Looks like JasonBirder has been let off.

So - plan is to drain the sump one day so we can work in the dry, Run the two hose's in parallel and strip tie them together.
Possibly attach them to the left wall with a couple of rawl plugs. or bury wedge them out the way.

Then sort out a weight for end that will keep the hose of the deck to prevent gravel being sucked up. I was thinking about a large flat piece of limestone - with a couple of holes drilled in it, so the hose can be strip tied to it.

Then just need to tinker with the pulley so that it works smoothly.

These things are never simple are they.

Offline Rob

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2301
  • The Eldon
    • My Photos
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2006, 09:39:16 am »
What we (mainly Henry) did when syphoning and pump the rasp sumps was to jubilee clip a section of meshing to the end of the pipe, to prevent sucking up gravel (especially important with hand pumps).
Simplified, the meshing was like a continuation of the pipe for about 4 inches, made out of strong stuff. This gave a large surface area for water to enter the end of the pipe so it diodn't matter if alf of it was int he gravel, it still worked.
Infact Henry might still have a few left over. There will almost certainatly be a few between the rasp sumps if your keen!
Food for thought.
The end is where we start....

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6241
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2006, 09:51:16 am »
yes - thought about something like that.

Problem is - that when you turn up - you need to attach the pump to that end of the hose to prime it and get it going. Ideally - you dont want to be having to undo and do up jubilee clips. They will soon rust and become impossible to undo.

If possible, I want it so that folk can just rock up - plug in the hose to the pump. prime the two syphone hoses, unplug the pump and leave it to do its thing. No need to take screwdrivers/knives/spare jubilee clips/wd40/bolt croppers/acetalene welding gear/lathe etc.

Of course if the A-team were ever to get stuck the far side of a sump - Im sure there would be a full work shop available for them.

" I aint getin' in no sump, goddam crazy foo "

Offline paul

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4339
  • Orpheus CC, NPC
    • Orpheus Caving Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2006, 12:32:27 pm »
Blimey - good effort, thats one each  :bow:

When we pulled the last lot in - it was quite straight forward with one in front pulling, and one behind unsnagging. but I bet one each was a pain. So - I owe you a beer.

Looks like JasonBirder has been let off.


Looks like JasonBirder owes Keith and Alan a beer!  :beer2:

I'll let them know if I see them tonight...  ;D
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6241
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2006, 09:52:32 pm »
Second hose has now been laid through the sump. We started the sump draining at 7pm on Wednesday night. After sitting it out for 3 hours (wehad a stove for a brew) we gave up. The sump was de-roofed Im sure -
but you couldn't quite see through and neither of us fancyied getting too wet.

JB (of this site) valiantly offered to return in the morning and finish the job.  :bow:

He reported that the sump was roughly at the same level as we'd left it the night before  i.e. - it must have dropped - the siphon broken - then filled back up a bit.
He set the siphon going and waited. After about an hour - the sump was low enough and the 2nd pipe was
dragged through.

JB reckons that the exit is indeed quite 'tight' and involved a bit of excavating of mud that had settled in the bottom to slip through - definatly not something you want to be doing while free diving so beware.  :read:

Personally - Im amazed at the volumn of water in the sump. It must have been an epic job to bail it. Does anyone know if it just used to get poured down the little drain hole by the dam.


It would be interesting to see exactly how long it takes now so people
know what to expect. Now we have two pipes it should take half the time to drain it - Im guessing at about 2 hours.
It would probably be an idea to send an advance party in on say Friday night to start the siphon  - ready for the team trip on saturday.

also - it would seem that the small air bell 6 meters from the dam is not the lowest section of the sump. Either you need to 'man' the syphon and move it in a bit deeper as the water level goes down - or, once its dry
- I need to re-arrange the pulley system to send the pipe to the deep bit. (I did notice an appropriatly placed thread in the roof for this.)

Cheers again to those who've helped. Theres still a bit of tinkering to do to get the pulley working properly. And of course the filthy five bolting properly.

Offline JB

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 906
  • Eldon Pothole Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2006, 09:14:46 pm »
George Taylor, Anne and I went to try to do the Giants figure of 8 trip today. Everything was looking good; we'd got all the kit we needed, Far Curtain was passable, St Valentine's sump was at 'normal' level when we arrived and I was confident we were going to get through. However, the pump broke before I'd managed to start the second siphon. We didn't have enough time to wait for the sump to empty with only one hose so had to call it a day.  :wall:

Will post on here when the pump is fixed (should be later this week).

Offline Greg L

  • A recovering
  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2007, 12:04:50 pm »
JB, has the pump been fixed yet? Anyone else know about it? I'm considering giving the figure 8 trip a bash sometime early summer.

Drainrat.
--The caver formerly known as Drainrat--

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6241
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2007, 12:55:30 pm »

As far as Im aware - JB fixed the pump.

The whole project was left working - but not completely finished.

There are two hoses laid through the sump zip tied together, You will need to wade into the sump to retreive the ends. (or try pulling one end of the blue polyprop rope which may or may not be tied to the end of the hose depending on how JB left it).

you then need to prime the hoses. Not sure how easy it is to keep the first one submerged while you prime the 2nd.

Now the important bit. Once the hoses are running, you need to return them to the deepest bit of the sump. You can wade a fair way in - to a small air bell - and stick them as deep as possible there - but you may still have to sit and wait a while, then if it looks like the hoses are going to break suface - shove em in a bit deeper.

someone else could be off rigging Geology pot at this point.

I know JB has actually been through. so the system does work. Not been done with two hoses though. I'd allow at leat two hours for the sump to drop.

You've sparked my interest in this one again - I might have to unpack my caving kit and get down there.

Offline Greg L

  • A recovering
  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 115
A wasted visit :(
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2007, 03:16:48 pm »
Waking bright and early this morning, I felt the sudden urge to get underground so off I popped on a solo trip down Giant's Hole. I decided to go and have a look at St Valentine's sump to try and empty it using Sam T's pump/syphon arrangement.

However after over an hour of struggling I couldn't even get one of the hoses syphoning. The problem is that there is no way of attaching the hose to the pump. There is a 2 inch stump of white hose jubilee clipped onto the pump, but the main fire hose neither fits inside the white tube, or over the top of it. Surely some sort of connector is required? I cunningly disassembled the fire hose nozzle to try and butcher a connector but even then I was still stumped.

All I managed to do was butt the two pieces of tube together and pump frantically, but the amount of water leaking prevented me overcoming the head.

Drainrat MEng (Hons)
--The caver formerly known as Drainrat--

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6241
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #64 on: May 08, 2007, 07:58:10 am »
 >:(

Quote
However, the pump broke before I'd managed to start the second siphon. We didn't have enough time to wait for the sump to empty with only one hose so had to call it a day. 

Will post on here when the pump is fixed (should be later this week).

There was a small black plastic "reducer" that took the size of the white 'stub' down to the fire hose size. This is what snapped on JB - however - I'm sure he'd informed me that it was now fixed.

Seems not.

Its was one of these - cut to the two appropriate diameters



I'll try and get hold of one from the High Peak Garden Center. Seems like they are not robust enough to withstand cavers - both johnny and JB have bust them. I might solder some copper fitting together to create the same thing - should be a bit more robust.

Offline Greg L

  • A recovering
  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #65 on: May 08, 2007, 09:18:46 am »
Do you know the two internal diameters of the pipes? I could probably turn something in steel on the lathe. That would never break! Also, only one fire hose was attached to the rock, the other was way down the sump having snapped it's zip tie.

BTW, 10/10 for the pulley system. It seemed to work a treat.

Drainrat.
--The caver formerly known as Drainrat--

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6241
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2007, 09:52:54 am »

Erm - I'll let you know, need to dig some out of the shed and measure them. Brass or stainless would be nice (but to be honest - I think the copper fittings would be fine (ive done one before).

Bear in mind that a thin wall is desirable - as maximim flow rates are required. Thats why the copper tube is good.

As mentioned above - the project is not quite finished.

The hose's could do with evening up i.e. the shorter one needs pulling though to match the longer one. (dont try just pulling, the hose is is two sections and there will be far too much friction/weight. It will need to be done when the sump is empty.

Also - need to tinker with the pully/rock...
a: it probably needs to go further into the sump.
b: may need to devise some sort of method of weighting the hose, yet maintaining it clear of the bottom to prevent blockages. If a stones/debris where to get sucked up and lodge as you drag the hose back to the deep point - it would knacker the whole system.

If you want to tinker drain rat - feel free - I'll be busy in baggers for the next few months.

Offline JB

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 906
  • Eldon Pothole Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2007, 10:40:42 am »
Hmmm...just seen this!

I definitely replaced the fitting with one from the fish shop next to Hitch n Hike. Was a couple of weeks after I bust it. It wasn't quite such a good fit as the original one that broke but i stuck it right in there and it looked pretty solid. If all there is now on the end of the pump is a white bit of plastic pipe then it's come off since. I know that some lads from Chesterfield (Tony something) were going to have a go a couple of months ago. I kept finding even with the original one that when you disconnected the firehose from the pump the reducer thing often came out. Sounds like the reducer has come off when someone's disconnected the firehose. It might still be on the end of one of the firehoses.

Cheers,
Jules.

Offline Greg L

  • A recovering
  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2007, 11:40:44 am »
It might still be on the end of one of the firehoses.

That's one thing I didn't check. I saw the second fire hose about 10m down into the sump, but I swam straight past it without having a good look. Still, as SamT says it is still work in progress. In my mind I am devising a doofer, that can be plugged into the firehoses once they are siphoning, that will prevent them from hoovering up big stones.

Ratty.
--The caver formerly known as Drainrat--

BenM

  • Guest
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2007, 11:54:21 am »
Sam….
The reappearance of this thread has sparked an idea for my own little project down here in the Mendips!

Thing I’m wondering about is how did you eventually solve the problem of the siphon been dragged through the mud? - and then getting blocked?

Saying that I can’t remember St V’s been too muddy (I’ve got about 10inch of the stuff to deal with)… :furious:

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6241
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2007, 12:12:20 pm »
Hmm - or is floating about in the sump somewhere.

Looks like it needs jubliee clipping to the white hose firmly. That way you have pump/white hose/reducer all as one unit.

Just plug the fire hose on - pump slow and steady. I found that just holding the whole thing underwater, hold the fire hose on with you hand, and that seemed to work.

As for a 'doofer' - as ratty puts it. How does this sound.

The two hoses are zip tied to the *underside* of one of those Swimming floats (18inch square of foam). They effectively float on the surface then, away from any muck - a lead weight of the right mass is ziptied underneath - effectively holding the float the right way round (like a keel) . so you have a sandwich - float on the top - pipes - lead keel.

that way - you can use the pully - to 'float' the hose to and from the far end of the sump whilst keeping it clear of any crap in the bottom of the sump.

Just a thought - but sounds fiddly.

Offline Rob

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2301
  • The Eldon
    • My Photos
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2007, 12:32:44 pm »
Sam….
The reappearance of this thread has sparked an idea for my own little project down here in the Mendips!

Thing I’m wondering about is how did you eventually solve the problem of the siphon been dragged through the mud? - and then getting blocked?

Saying that I can’t remember St V’s been too muddy (I’ve got about 10inch of the stuff to deal with)… :furious:

When we were pumping the rasp last year Henry made up a few cages to put over the end of the pipes. These were made out of strong wire mesh that extended about 15-20cm out of the end of the pipe and were jubilee clipped on to the pipe. This way the small bit of silt could pass through the system (hence not blocking the mesh) and the gravelly bits couldn't get into the pump.
He's probably got them still, going spare...
It depends what your trying to do with the sypon though. In the moosetrap these meshes were good because they wanted the silt hoovering away with the water. But if there's plenty of space through with the mud there then maybe not an issue and you could adopt a more suitable method.
The end is where we start....

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6241
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2007, 12:46:03 pm »

Thats the obvious solution - however - it would mean that if folks want to turn up and just start pumping (fnar fnar) they dont want to be fiddling about getting the cages off - priming - then back on again with almost certainly jammed/rusted jubilee clips. With the floaty method - the float could be slid further back along the pipes (if the zip ties arent pulled too tight). Attached to the pump - primed) then slid back under the float - and back down the sump.

Sounds simple enough in my head. Probably quite fiddly in practice.

Offline Greg L

  • A recovering
  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2007, 12:54:25 pm »
Was just thinking (could you hear the cogs grinding?), how about if another doofer was made that joined the two hoses together with just one inlet hose, so there was just one hose to prime? Would the pump still be able to prime both syphons simultaneously?

I best get AutoCAD fired up (blows off the dust....).

Ratty.
--The caver formerly known as Drainrat--

BenM

  • Guest
Re: St Valentines Sump
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2007, 09:52:42 am »
Sam...
Did you manage to find one of those pipe reducers? High Peak Garden Center?