Author Topic: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership")  (Read 758 times)

Offline langcliffe

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BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership")
« on: March 28, 2017, 12:18:47 pm »
A definitive vote at this AGM indicating that an overwhelming number of our members wish BCA to move forward on this would put more solid backing behind those who are already working for the change the majority of us want.

I've been checking the BCA website for the Constitution without success. For those of us too fearful to travel south of Skipton, does anyone know whether proxy votes permitted at the Annual General Meeting?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 04:49:52 pm by MarkS, Reason: modified topic title »

Offline Jenny P

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership")
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2017, 12:45:52 pm »
In reply to Langclffe's question:

Proxy votes are not permitted at the moment.

However, there is a proposal on the table for this AGM which would allow proxy voting, subject to conditions, at future AGMs.

I agree that I am unable to find the BCA constitution on its website in the place where you would expect to find it: in the "about" section, under "documents".  I do have a copy of it myself but it should be on the website for all to see.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 04:50:17 pm by MarkS, Reason: modified topic title »


Offline langcliffe

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership)
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2017, 03:19:36 pm »
Thank you, JennyP and MarkS. This implies that the result of votes at the AGM may well be determined by the prevailing opinions held within the hosting region.

I look forward to seeing proxy voting implemented, as it is for the British Mountaineering Council AGMs, so that all members have a reasonable opportunity to vote.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership)
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2017, 05:06:16 pm »

Proxy votes are not permitted at the moment.

However, there is a proposal on the table for this AGM which would allow proxy voting, subject to conditions, at future AGMs.



 :wall: I can't make the AGM and am gutted I won't be able to vote.  It's 2017 not 1817 - please, BCA for goodness sake introduce proxy voting asap.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership)
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2017, 04:09:31 pm »
Just be careful of what you wish for. 

Suppose that a whole lot of caving clubs happen to disagree with something which you are strongly in favour of.  These clubs all put out a plea to their members to send in a proxy vote and you, who assumed all was fair and square, find you have lost out to a mass proxy vote.  Would you still be in favour of proxy voting?

Proxy voting can be a two-edged weapon - fine if the vote is on your side and everyone agrees - but not so fine if you care enough to go and argue your point with people who listen to you and are convinced by you and then find you lose out on a proxy vote sent in beforehand by a stack of people who were told how to vote by someone and just did what they were told.

BCA does have a one person, one vote, system by using a ballot after a contentious discussion - e.g. the CRoW debate.  So, even if you couldn't attend the meeting, you may still have a chance to have your say when it comes to the ballot.  It isn't perfect but it's a step in the right direction.

Proxy voting at publicly quoted companies, such as Building Society AGMs, is not a fair example because the large Insurance companies and other shareholders effectively have the proxy votes sewn up.  You can go to the meeting and have your say - but you know in advance how the vote is going to go because the big shareholders have already made up their minds.

I don't know what the answer is to the problem but I think BCA is trying to be as democratic as it can, given that many cavers have strong feelings about some things but then say they are not prepared to to spend time coming to a meeting to make sure they have their say.

Offline bazdog

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership")
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2017, 04:18:36 pm »
Just be careful of what you wish for. 

Suppose that a whole lot of caving clubs happen to disagree with something which you are strongly in favour of.  These clubs all put out a plea to their members to send in a proxy vote and you, who assumed all was fair and square, find you have lost out to a mass proxy vote.  Would you still be in favour of proxy voting?

Proxy voting can be a two-edged weapon - fine if the vote is on your side and everyone agrees - but not so fine if you care enough to go and argue your point with people who listen to you and are convinced by you and then find you lose out on a proxy vote sent in beforehand by a stack of people who were told how to vote by someone and just did what they were told.

BCA does have a one person, one vote, system by using a ballot after a contentious discussion - e.g. the CRoW debate.  So, even if you couldn't attend the meeting, you may still have a chance to have your say when it comes to the ballot.  It isn't perfect but it's a step in the right direction.

Proxy voting at publicly quoted companies, such as Building Society AGMs, is not a fair example because the large Insurance companies and other shareholders effectively have the proxy votes sewn up.  You can go to the meeting and have your say - but you know in advance how the vote is going to go because the big shareholders have already made up their minds.

I don't know what the answer is to the problem but I think BCA is trying to be as democratic as it can, given that many cavers have strong feelings about some things but then say they are not prepared to to spend time coming to a meeting to make sure they have their say.
judging by the posts on ukcaving I don't think there are many people who would vote on something because someone told them what to do.
 The oppersite is equally true such as the motion of no confidence in the BMC. Without proxy voting a gang of disgruntled old timers (they have them too) could turn up at the agm and effectively disband the bmc council. With the proxy votes and debates on sites such as ukclimbing it looks likely that the motion will be defeated by the wider membership.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 04:49:27 pm by MarkS, Reason: modified topic title »

Offline MarkS

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership")
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2017, 05:00:13 pm »
Suppose that a whole lot of caving clubs happen to disagree with something which you are strongly in favour of.  These clubs all put out a plea to their members to send in a proxy vote and you, who assumed all was fair and square, find you have lost out to a mass proxy vote.  Would you still be in favour of proxy voting?

Proxy voting can be a two-edged weapon - fine if the vote is on your side and everyone agrees - but not so fine if you care enough to go and argue your point with people who listen to you and are convinced by you and then find you lose out on a proxy vote sent in beforehand by a stack of people who were told how to vote by someone and just did what they were told.

So we're better off having decisions made by a small group of people who happen to be free on the right weekend and willing/able to travel than we are having decisions made by the wider membership?

If myself and and those agreeing with me are outvoted by members of "a whole lot of caving clubs" holding an opposing view, is that not simply a democratic process? I see no particular difference between proxy voting and postal voting. Each are subject to the same flaws.

A voting system should not be assessed on the basis that it might result in different outcomes than the current system. A voting system should be assessed on how democratic and fair it is.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership)
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2017, 07:08:38 pm »
Just be careful of what you wish for. 

Suppose that a whole lot of caving clubs happen to disagree with something which you are strongly in favour of. 

Suppose that a _single_ large caving club decides to enact a coup on the BCA. They just wait until the AGM is held at a local pub and bribe their members with free beer to vote how they want. The single large caving club (or even a quarter of its members in some cases) now holds a majority vote in the council of individuals.

In both the case you suggest and this one they still need to get a majority in the house of groups to pass anything, which proxy voting wouldn't change.

Offline 2xw

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership)
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2017, 09:28:58 pm »
Just be careful of what you wish for. 

Suppose that a whole lot of caving clubs happen to disagree with something which you are strongly in favour of. 

Suppose that a _single_ large caving club decides to enact a coup on the BCA. They just wait until the AGM is held at a local pub and bribe their members with free beer to vote how they want. The single large caving club (or even a quarter of its members in some cases) now holds a majority vote in the council of individuals.

In both the case you suggest and this one they still need to get a majority in the house of groups to pass anything, which proxy voting wouldn't change.


How large would it need to be? Few of us are probably going to turn up :)

Can CIMs vote or is it only DIMs?

Will
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Offline cavemanmike

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership")
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2017, 10:06:14 pm »
"these times they are a changing"
I'm sure someone wrote a song about this  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Offline andrewmc

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership)
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2017, 11:58:13 pm »
How large would it need to be? Few of us are probably going to turn up :)

Can CIMs vote or is it only DIMs?

Will


Well 29 people turned up last time, including the non-voting chair and secretary, so 30 might do it...

Both CIMs, DIMs and honorary members (I think?) can vote in the house of individuals bit.

Any BCA 'group' can vote in the groups bit I think, so any club, 'access controlling body', the CDG etc. I represented my Uni club last time - one of only two Uni clubs and only 5 clubs in total, which is pretty embarrassing... (and also means that if CHECC organized getting a member from every Uni club to turn up, they could probably swing a lot of votes)...

Other voting groups in attendance were the regional access bodies (CNCC, CSCC, Cambrian CC, DCA, FODCCAG, Charterhouse CC), the Cave Diving Group, the Association of Caving Instructors and the Association of Scout Caving Teams.

So yes, the Big Decisions made last year were made by 27 voting members and 15 groups, of which only 6 were caving clubs... only 6 caving clubs in the entire UK bothered to get representation at the AGM... frankly the fact that I wielded 1/6th of the voting of every caving club in the UK last year is somewhat terrifying!

(I may have erroneously expanded some acronyms and/or miscounted - original source, the draft minutes http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=about:documents:general_meetings:agm_minutes_2016.pdf )

Offline ianball11

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership")
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 11:44:26 am »
Well done for turning up.

I think if CHECC turned up with a rep from each club, the thing would be a whole lot better for it.



Offline 2xw

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership")
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2017, 04:44:45 pm »
Well done for turning up.

I think if CHECC turned up with a rep from each club, the thing would be a whole lot better for it.

Working on it, at least from the local clubs we should have some.

I can't find the agenda on the bca webste is one up yet?
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Offline Jenny P

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership")
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2017, 05:24:51 pm »
The agenda is required to be made known to members not later than 6 weeks before the date of the meeting.

You already have date, place and time posted elsewhere on UKc as Sunday, 11th. June 2017; Rotary Club, Castleton; 10.30am

Offline 2xw

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Re: BCA proxy voting (Split from "BCA membership")
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 06:26:09 pm »
Thanks Jenny I appreciate it!
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