Author Topic: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)  (Read 5714 times)

Offline Stuart France

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 137
Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« on: October 16, 2017, 08:55:17 pm »
Difficult to know where to post this one in the present climate.

We have received a complaint about a long-abandoned camp in Ogof Draenen near Lucky 13 passage.  This camp features at about 2 minutes into a 2014 video concerning a visit to arguably the prettiest part of Dollimores: 

The topic of camping in caves was raised at last Sunday’s PDCMG meeting but no decisions were made.  So I propose to extract as much as possible of these stoves, pots, pans, old food and alcohol, karrimats, clothes and bags of general tat from the cave on an upcoming autumn weekend and I am looking for helpers armed with a near empty large tackle bag and a drag cord.  Send me a PM to volunteer with your availability dates.

I will make this refuse collection as efficient and as interesting as possible. So, depending on the numbers of people available and their ability, we might add a trip to Snowball, Last Sandwich, Dollimores and other interesting places that you might have heard of recently but never seen.  By the way, there is more tat in Dollimores if we can shift that too.
 
Stuart France
Cambrian Caving Council

« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 08:53:36 am by MarkS, Reason: modified topic title »

Offline Cap'n Chris

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 12242
Re: Draenen clear-up
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2017, 09:07:41 pm »
Excellent suggestion! If you're ever in Mendip and want to win hearts and minds you might care to bring out halfnanton of rotting planks etc from Sludge Pit hole.

Offline falconjosh

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • PDCMG Officer & Aberystwyth Caving Club
    • Crawl Pedal Splash youtube page
Re: Draenen clear-up
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2017, 09:14:30 pm »
Thanks for the post and offer for help Stuart, but it on my list to complete over the coming months with working weekend in the planning for conservative work in Draenen. So no need to worry mate, it will be cleared
Watch this space for updates about the weekend and if anyone interested post or pm me please.
Hope that’s help, many thanks

Joshua white
Conservative officer for draenen (pdcmg)
Crawl Pedal Splash Youtuber
PDCMG Conservation Officer
Member of Aberystwyth Caving Club

Offline Stuart France

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 137
Re: Draenen clear-up
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 10:59:15 pm »
Chris - Surely abandoned “rotting planks” in Mendip caves are more in the ambit of the CSCC’s conservation officer than Cambrian’s?  There’s rotting planks too in the Draenen No.1 Entrance for anyone interested.

Josh - My suggested camp clean-up will go ahead as advertised. Thanks for your offer and please do take out any of the camp rubbish later that our group don’t manage to extract.  I realise that living in Southampton prevents you from visiting Wales as often as you might like.

Astonishing, by the way, the variety of rubbish at the camp, as in the photo.

Global Moderator Comment A photograph has been removed from this post with consent


« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 11:37:30 am by Badlad »

Offline falconjosh

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • PDCMG Officer & Aberystwyth Caving Club
    • Crawl Pedal Splash youtube page
Re: Draenen clear-up
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2017, 06:49:54 am »
Sturat I did realise that your so keen to do it yourself! You should have mentioned that you would like  to do it in the meeting. Any support and help on the conservative is always much appreciation! Hopefully you clear it all, so that I can tick it off my list of jobs to do!

Let me know once it is clear so that I know.
Any help for experience conservative officers like yourself on draenen and helping me develop and gain knowledge, is greatly appreciated.

Many thank,
Joshua white
Crawl Pedal Splash Youtuber
PDCMG Conservation Officer
Member of Aberystwyth Caving Club

Offline zomjon

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 774
Re: Draenen clear-up
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2017, 07:40:04 am »
There are some interesting spelling errors here! Looks like we might need some popcorn for this thread now as it gets taken over by the Draenen fiasco!

Offline danthecavingman

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 680
  • Don't follow too close.....
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2017, 10:04:47 am »
I'm guessing this stuff isn't going to come out via the same entrance it came in  :lol:
You see that Taxus baccata.........that's Yew that is........

Offline falconjosh

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • PDCMG Officer & Aberystwyth Caving Club
    • Crawl Pedal Splash youtube page
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2017, 10:51:01 am »
Sorry Stuart for the spelling mistakes, wrote quick before work this morning.
Crawl Pedal Splash Youtuber
PDCMG Conservation Officer
Member of Aberystwyth Caving Club

Offline Long Drop

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2017, 11:50:40 am »
Stuart.  You were clearly not listening during the meeting. 

I believe that Chris Densham said several times that he would arrange the clear-up of the Big Beauty camp.

Not sure why you find it necessary to start this thread here, or post pictures or campers personal possessions on this forum.  Stuff at camps isn't there for you to interfere with.

L

Online Wayland Smith

  • stalker
  • ***
  • Posts: 263
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2017, 12:38:16 pm »
Stuff at camps isn't there for you to interfere with.

There was a complaint that it was a sh1t tip!
If it's your tip, or you know who it belongs to then clear it up! (Or make it tidy and un-obvious.)
Don't just leave it there!  :spank:

Offline mudman

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 403
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 12:47:31 pm »
Stuff at camps isn't there for you to interfere with.

There was a complaint that it was a sh1t tip!
If it's your tip, or you know who it belongs to then clear it up! (Or make it tidy and un-obvious.)
Don't just leave it there!  :spank:

It must have been abandoned with some urgency. What else could explain cavers leaving alcohol behind?  :shrug:

Offline Sam Richards

  • regular
  • *
  • Posts: 57
  • ACC, BEC
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 01:17:22 pm »
It must have been abandoned with some urgency. What else could explain cavers leaving alcohol behind?  :shrug:
Haha, brilliant!  ;D
Have sent you a message Josh.

Offline NigR

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
  • Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros SWCC
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2017, 07:04:52 pm »
Long Drop,

By "campers personal possessions" I assume you must be referring to the long out of date contraceptive tablets. Well, we have not found any used condoms yet (haven't looked too hard, to be honest) but you can rest assured that if and when we do there will be pictures of these on here too.

Big Beauty Junction was originally discovered and named by Mark Withers and myself back in early 1995 and it was indeed a very beautiful section of pristine cave passage; the complete opposite to what it is today. We did not find it so that tossers such as these can have their bloody birthday parties there and use it as a stopping off point for swilling rotten whisky so many years down the line, of that you can be sure!

Regarding Chris Densham, the Oxford University CC rep: he also admitted that the whisky might be his, or have you forgotten that bit (maybe you were not listening?). The camp was set up by OUCC and left in its present disgusting condition by them, so yes, I do agree the buck ultimately stops with him as he is the club rep. However, they have had plenty of opportunities to clean the place up, including very recently. Perhaps Chris and his friends could (at a stretch!) be forgiven for doing nothing on July 1st this year as their headaches were so severe, but there is no excuse whatsoever for the party of three OUCC younger members who went past there several weeks later (going both in and out of the cave) as they were travelling totally empty handed, carrying nothing at all (don't want to let anything get in the way of the speed-caving, do we?). The departing PDCMG Secretary, Fleur Loveridge, is also a member of OUCC and she passed by there herself on her most recent trip into the cave in August.

Full marks to Stuart and Cambrian Caving Council for finally taking the initiative.


Video to follow.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 07:36:07 pm by NigR »

Offline Greg Jones

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 678
  • GSS
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2017, 08:56:55 pm »
 :clap2:
Renegade!

Offline Rhys

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1476
  • SWCC, RFDCC
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2017, 09:02:42 pm »
Well, we have not found any used condoms yet (haven't looked too hard, to be honest) but you can rest assured that if and when we do there will be pictures of these on here too.

I've read some truly bizarre stuff on this forum, particularly related to Draenen. However, I think this really takes the biscuit!

If it floats your boat Nig, go for it!

Rhys

Online alastairgott

  • 11 and a half weeks till September...
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1540
  • silvestre en los bosques
    • SILVESTRE
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2017, 10:11:50 pm »
But there is no excuse whatsoever for the party of three OUCC younger members who went past there several weeks later (going both in and out of the cave) as they were travelling totally empty handed, carrying nothing at all

It strikes me that this is riding roughshod over all OUCC members because you have an axe to Grind.

I know a few OUCC members who I quite like, they are very accommodating. Indeed I have heard them specifically say that they have not been a part of the old OUCC but have tried to make amends and be accepted by Welsh clubs and Stuart France.
 This mindset was crushed by a heavy handed approach which saw them being blasted for having not returned a hut key within a handful of days of leaving the Hut.
 This approach to dealing with student groups will lead you to becoming isolated in your view. Yes there will be people who sympathise with your view, but you could try a different approach and not make judgements.

Have you attempted to talk to the current members of OUCC? They are actually quite keen all round cavers and perhaps could do with your support or perhaps you would be better having their support?

Some situations can be mutually beneficial.

Offline Martin Laverty

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 187
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2017, 11:41:48 pm »
Alastair - It sounds like you are grinding somebody else's axe!

I, and probably the handful of other old OUCC members who post on here, would love to hear the views and exploits of current OUCC members (whether you quite like them or not). The club used to be very good on passing on news of its discoveries but this stopped some seven years ago for Draenen, and pretty much entirely four years ago. Have they found nothing in Draenen since 2010 despite their digging and camping trips?

And I'm pretty sure Nig does not have a Hut which he lends out keys to ... perhaps your reference is to Stuart helping out with administration of Whitewalls for Chelsea: in either case it's not relevant here is it?

Offline NigR

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
  • Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros SWCC
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2017, 12:23:07 am »
Alastair,

I would be more than willing to talk to some of the current crop of OUCC cavers, particularly if they have a more rational and enlightened approach than some of their predecessors. Tell them to feel free to contact me directly or pass me on their details and I will contact them myself. I take your point concerning "tarring everyone with the same brush" and I apologise if my comments have caused offence to any innocent parties. Believe me, I would love to be proved wrong in my assessment of their club.

Regarding supporting student caving in general, I entirely concur with your view: it should be encouraged in as many ways as possible. If current OUCC members (or any other student groups) encounter problems whilst caving in South Wales (particularly with regard to access) then just let me know and I will do whatever I can to help. I have made many worthwhile contacts over the years and if these can be put to good use to benefit the next generation of cavers, then so much the better.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 12:44:58 am by NigR »

Offline Stuart France

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 137
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2017, 01:08:42 am »
Quote
"a heavy handed approach which saw them being blasted for having not returned a hut key within a handful of days of leaving the Hut"

I'm not sure which hut or student club this comment is about.  The club that I'm a member of has had mainly good experiences but the occasional unfortunate one too.  One university club has lost two hut keys on different visits which is mainly a nuisance but also a concern if they were dropped near the building, while another club left the door unlocked with the electricity and gas turned on which is worrying.

I'm all in favour letting out our hut to student caving clubs and any other bona fide cavers.  We could easily check up on a Monday that things were left OK as various of our members live locally.  But it would be nice if it was always left safe and cleaned up thanks.

This thread began about cleaning up parts of Ogof Draenen so we're heading a bit off topic here with lost hut keys and lack of spectacular discoveries (until lately).  So hoping that some good news will appear soon on topic.

Online alastairgott

  • 11 and a half weeks till September...
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1540
  • silvestre en los bosques
    • SILVESTRE
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2017, 11:19:34 am »
Alastair - It sounds like you are grinding somebody else's axe!

I, and probably the handful of other old OUCC members who post on here, would love to hear the views and exploits of current OUCC members (whether you quite like them or not). The club used to be very good on passing on news of its discoveries but this stopped some seven years ago for Draenen, and pretty much entirely four years ago. Have they found nothing in Draenen since 2010 despite their digging and camping trips?

Perhaps my use of 'old' was a misnomer. I was merely referring to the fact that the "three younger members" could not necessarily be blamed for the setting up of the camp in that particular location by the relatively older members of OUCC (but not old).

I owe a particular debt of Gratitude to the old members of OUCC and YUCPC who created two very good clubs with good collaboration on the Picos de Europa caving expeditions. I owe that Gratitude due to the fact that I would never have started caving if it weren't for York.
 Perhaps I may even get out there at some point myself, one can dream.

Sorry Stuart, cannot apologise enough from taking the thread off topic. But also cannot sit by and see general aspersions cast about a student club.
 As you should be well aware from other topics, sometimes University caving clubs are the first societies to be kicked out (of the union) for any excuse.

Offline Rhys

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1476
  • SWCC, RFDCC
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2017, 12:23:54 pm »
Alastair, you should note that this latest thread is just part of the continuing campaign by Nig and Stuart to fling muck at anyone they consider connected to a single entrance policy at Draenen. Fling enough muck and maybe some of it will stick.

PS. This observation is not me condoning the littering of caves. That crap should not still be in there.

Offline Greg Jones

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 678
  • GSS
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2017, 01:10:25 pm »
Flinging muck, not that I necessarily agree with the term, does appear to have finally got us somewhere; that somewhere being that it would seem that the single entrance policy is now gone. At least I hope it's gone.
Renegade!

Offline NewStuff

  • Vocal proponent of Open Access
  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 714
  • www.dddwhcc.com
    • Deep Dark Dirty WetHoles
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2017, 06:35:58 pm »
connected to a single entrance policy at Draenen

Being brutally honest, those that want a single entrance are far more interested in politics and other bullshit than actually going caving. I'm glad it's changing.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Stuart France

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 137
Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2017, 08:42:48 pm »
Don't clean this up.

Talking of muck, the video linked by the first posting on this thread shows the Snowball formation with a voiceover saying the muddy blob on it was put there by bats and trying to explain how simple its formation in the position at which you now see it must have been.  That’s not true is it?

http://www.caveaccess.co.uk/draenen/snowballs.jpg

Originally the snowball was found lying in a slot (top photo) and some naughty person has lifted it out and stood it upright on top of the big rock where it is today (middle photo) and got it muddy in the process.

Don’t try to get the mud off now as attempts to rectify may well make matters worse and don’t try to put it back where it originally was in the cave either.  Photoshop is the best tool for removing mud (bottom photo) or moving formations around to make a prettier picture.

We are where we are on this.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 08:51:23 pm by Stuart France »

Offline caving_fox

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 545
Re: Draenen clear-up
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2017, 09:13:26 am »

Astonishing, by the way, the variety of rubbish at the camp, as in the photo.

Why is this astonishing? This part of the normal daily life of many/most women. It's hardly astonishing that there are females caving, nor that they are competent enough to endure the rigours of camping and digging at the far reaches of draenen.

It's obviously astonishing that anyone would leave any litter in a cave, but no more than that.

Inadvertent sexism such as this help create an pervading attitude that women are less welcome in our sport, which we know is not the case. Please think how any of your words may be interpreted by others.

(mods if you want to split this into another topic or the general sexism one, I've no objections)
If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.