Author Topic: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)  (Read 5822 times)

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2017, 10:22:55 am »
In the words of Driod (which I quite like) .... "Delicate flower"   :unsure:

The photograph shows a female contraceptive left at the campsite. It is not an attack on women. Furthermore, we all know (well, I assume we do) that the "act" requires a male and a female in equal measure.

It's not sexism (inadvertent or otherwise) its an example of littering.  The camp is a disgrace and it appears from the video that there were as many females there as males.  It's not a "sex" thing - it's a "let's not leave crap everywhere" thing.

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Offline NigR

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2017, 02:15:00 pm »
Alastair, you should note that this latest thread is just part of the continuing campaign by Nig and Stuart to fling muck at anyone they consider connected to a single entrance policy at Draenen. Fling enough muck and maybe some of it will stick.

OK, let's look at the genesis of this thread, shall we?

As is well known, I am Secretary of Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros. Earlier this year, a couple of our members noticed the terrible state of the OUCC camp at Big Beauty Junction and reported this information back to me. I decided to go and see for myself, finally getting the opportunity in August. I was accompanied by Martin Laverty, Rob Jones and Ian Adams, all very experienced cavers. They are also highly reliable and trustworthy people: Martin is currently on the Cambrian Caving Council Executive, both Rob and Ian have been in recent years. I am confident their opinions will confirm my own. Upon reaching the camp, we were appalled by what we saw; it was worse than I had been led to believe, much worse. We had been expecting a mess but nothing anywhere near as bad as what we found. Personally, I found it very upsetting as I had been the first person there all those years ago and had seen this section of wonderful cave passage in its original, unspoilt condition. All four of us were quite literally stunned and words did not come easily. Eventually, some discussion took place as to whether we should try to take out what we could there and then. Lack of tackle bags (we were only on a very short trip) soon put paid to this idea and it was decided that more could be gained, long term education wise, by trying to bring this to the attention of a wider audience.

Hence, prior to the PDCMG meeting last weekend, I wrote a formal letter of complaint on behalf of my club to Cambrian's Conservation and Access Officer, Stuart France. (If anyone would like to see this letter, just PM me your email address and I will forward  a copy.) I asked Stuart to raise the matter at the meeting (we are no longer members of the PDCMG, having resigned in 2010) and he agreed. I also sent him an advance copy of a short video we have made and asked him to show this at the meeting, but he was unable to do so due to lack of adequate display facilities. (This video will be posted here once we have completed the final edits.) Stuart then decided to start this thread following the conclusion of the meeting. I did not ask him to, but I am pleased that he has. All other considerations aside, if publicising this prevents it from happening again, either in Draenen or elsewhere, it will have been well worth all the time and effort involved in doing so.

Finally, let me say that (despite the assertions made by Rhys to the contrary) I have absolutely nothing against anyone who is "connected to" or has supported a single entrance policy at Ogof Draenen in the past. I have always thought they were extremely misguided and doubted some of their motives, but that is all. In fact, now that their policy (in real terms) no longer exists I can even feel some sympathy for them. What is especially galling here is not that this camp was set up (and left in its present disgusting condition) by a club (OUCC) who believed in a single entrance policy. It is that it is this very club (and several of its individual members) who have been the chief proponents of trying to enforce this policy by whatever means possible (including the concreting of any other entrances) and that they have done so principally under the guise of "conservation reasons". It is this sheer hypocrisy that annoys me most.

Offline Greg Jones

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2017, 05:55:20 pm »
Well said, especially the last bit.
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Offline Alkapton

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2017, 05:09:04 am »
(mods:- I agree this should be split to its own topic as it has sweet f a to do with Stewarts original post.   Well the original post is essential because it has everything to do with it, but this is a really different topic here)

caving_fox.   What exactly is your problem?

Consider the sentence "Astonishing, by the way, the variety of rubbish at the camp, as in the photo."

It is an observation , that’s the reason for "... by the way, ..." .

The main operative in the sentence is the word "variety".

Stewart is simply expressing his great surprise at the number of different kinds of crap left abandoned by people who really should know better.

Now take a good look at the photo (Ok, if you watch the film things get more explicit, but we are talking about the still image at the top of this topic, not the film) at the top of this thread.   I would argue there are indeed a great many different classes of crap displayed.

It is clear from both your post above and your previous post that you are referring to the female contraceptive packaging (its irrelevant if all have been used or not used).   It is also clear that you think referring to this particular class of crap involves sexism.    In what way is mentioning abandoned tablets any more 'sexist' than mentioning sweet wrappers or bottles of alcohol?

Think how you would feel if you came across male contraceptives whilst caving, or were found in the camp which is the principal subject of this topic.   Now hold that thought while I go into reminiscence.

I think it would be 1967 or 1968, so I be either 6 or 7.   I think dinner time or afternoon break, I found very similar tablet packaging to the packaging we are talking about in the school playground.   It sticks in my mind because I was fascinated by the fact you have to take each tablet on a particular day of the month.   I wondered what condition the person who had used them had that would require the tablets to be taken on the right day. Very odd you would have a kind of 'calendar' printed on tablet packaging.  Only many years later did I realise what they were or why the fact I was fascinated caused a certain amount of consternation with a particular teacher.

Today I take tablets (Ramipril, for hypertension = high blood pressure) that have the days of the week by each tablet/capsule.

Would it be any more or less disgusting for me to abandon my Ramipril packaging in a cave than it would be for someone to abandon a different sort of tablet packaging?     Would it be more or less surprising to find Ramipril packaging than female contraceptive packaging?

Would Stewart express surprise if he found Ramipril packaging in a cave?   Well probably not now after what has been seen.   But yes it would have been included in the complaint - the pethidine was, wasn't it?

There is a very old rule in caving:- "Take nothing but photographs, leave nothing but footprints".

Sadly, not everybody in caving obeys the rules.

I've digressed enough, you can release that thought now.

What if I'd found male contraceptives in the playground.   Do you think teachers/staff would have behaved the same or differently.   Do you think they should behave the same or differently?

What if it were male contraceptives had been left in the cave (used or not), would you feel or behave the same way as you do now?

I would certainly be more disgusted had that been the case.   Tablet packaging is just that - it signifies nothing - it has no 'added connotations'.   Female contraceptive packaging is no exception.   At least in this society male contraceptives carry a much greater psychological significance in people’s minds than a package of tablets. The pill is a pill like any other.   The 'sheath' clearly has only one purpose and becomes a thing of mirth, disgust, filth, etc., that no mere tablet packaging (contraceptive or not) could ever equal.

When Stewart express surprise "at the variety" of crap left in the abandoned camp he does not single out any particular kind of crap, so why is it you clearly think he is referring to female contraceptives in particular?   Do you think he is like a pimply adolescent sn-wording in the playground?   Are you the kind of person who would sn-word at the site of Durex packet in Cantankerous Surveyors Passage?

I would like to think you answer "No" to all three questions, but your attitude suggests otherwise.  What you 'should' be feeling is disgust and revulsion at the way in which clearly experienced cavers who give mouth to 'best cave conservation practice' think it’s acceptable to leave such crap behind, in such a mess and for so long.   What you take into a cave you should take out.   You take a shit you take it out.   It is one thing to leave bed rolls and stoves neatly hidden in some obscure and unremarkable nook deep underground and quite another to leave (especially) perishable food, old wrappers, old medications, plastic bottles, general tat, rotting things that grow moulds no matter how intrinsically interesting the mould might be, etc., etc., etc.

Even if Stewart had singled out the female contraceptives I would still argue the absurdity of calling him a sexist (which you clearly are).   If they were some other kind of tablet he would feel just as offended I think, well I would be anyway.   It’s so easy, it’s a little thing, how hard is it to carry out?   It's not like the result of last night’s vindaloo, which is a bit impossible to carry out, so you look for a stream, you make an effort at least.

I now go back to my original question.   Just what exactly is your problem? 

Oh, I've read your tag line. "If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off."  Attitude problem.   You been hurt so you take it out on the rest of the world.

Delicate little flower you are not.

I'll tell you what is sexist.   The fact that if there were a woman with the footballing talent of Pele, George Best or Kevin Keegan, she would not be able to play 'top level' football.  Simple as that - not allowed.   That’s sexism.

That attitude just does not exist in caving.   There was (I hope still is), a lady up north (Yorkshire?) who specialised in 'mega' solo trips, like the hardest, longest trips, but solo.   Respect.   Solo very mentally challenging as well as physically.  There is nothing stopping you from caving at the very highest level.   What other sport allows that?   Yes, caving is male dominated, there are many reasons for that, which space and time prevent me from mentioning.   What I think is common to all cavers, certainly all I have met, is an above average intelligence and an iron will you cross at your peril.   When I say all cavers I mean all cavers, it includes all the female cavers I've met.  By the rule of induction, it therefore includes you, so I'm saying you are intelligent, what is your problem?

Men are different to women, that which is different we necessarily treat differently.  You have to live with that.    Prejudice is learnt and comes later.

Most cavers are male that’s how it is.   Cavers are closely related to miners, colliers, quarriers etc.   I think by law (late 19th Century society was offended that women in e.g. South Wales worked underground bare chested because of the heat so they made the law to stop it happening) women are not allowed to work underground in coal industry at least.  Do you think the male colliers were 'ogling the women hauling the drams?  Like f were they, that was only in the minds of the Victorian 'elite'.  Even now, well now if there were any collieries left, you work there with your butty eating showering crapping etc. with him.   So there gets to be a culture where a lot of 'normal' social barriers get smashed to bits.   This very much carries over to caving, a lot of cavers are or were miners, and except for the word 'work' cavers are like miners in their behaviour.  They depend upon each other, shower together, get blind drunk together or not (is it true a caver is either 'alcoholic' or tea-total? kind of seems that way).   So like what I'm saying is in caving you ain't going to be treated differently to a man.  Maybe that’s your problem, you won't be treated any differently.   Leave crap in a cave you can expect criticism, don't matter what it is.   Put yourself in an amusing position, it don't matter if you male or female, you might hear 'tits out for the lads'.

Sexism don't exist in caving, cause caving in many ways is better than sex be it solo or in groups.

And the moral of all this?   Don't antagonise a philosopher.
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Offline zomjon

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2017, 05:57:34 am »
Wow, I've just read all of that from Alkapton, now how do I claim that bit of my life back! Caving Fox made a fair point about the usage of a particular picture, I can see where he's coming from. This war between the PDCMG and a group of 'local' cavers is taking no prisoners on this thread and isn't doing a lot for the reputation of caving generally.

Offline MarkS

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2017, 09:35:09 am »
Moderator Comment Please keep posts relevant to the topic in hand, i.e. the proposed clean-up of Draenen. Thanks.

Offline Huge

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2017, 07:53:47 pm »
CAMP CLEARED

Not by Stu-nig, not by PDCMG but by a few local cavers, fed up with all the political point scoring c**p.

I and others have taken out any bits of rubbish we come across in Draenen, as part of the trips we've done in the cave. Made no fuss about it, no long posts on the forum with photos and videos. No political axe to grind.

I hadn't been to the area of the cave where the camp is for a very long time and when I mentioned this thread to a couple of friends who had, separately, they were surprised, as they hadn't noticed anything untoward.

The camp should have been cleared out by the cavers involved years ago and the PDCMG should have put pressure on them to get it cleared.

Being fed up with the all political s**t, I asked a few friends if they'd join me on a trip to clear the camp. This morning four people turned up at a very busy and blustery Pwll Du. Apparently some rare bird or other had been spotted in the area and the twitchers were out in force. Only three of us actually went underground as one person forgot their kit!

Given the language and hyperbole used in posts on this thread, we were expecting to be confronted with Armageddon! But we had a pleasant surprise when we saw there was not much there at all. It was a little messy but it was all contained in a very small area between a few boulders, not spread around all over the place. It had the look of having been riffled through, maybe by someone passing?

It took us way less than half an hour to pack everything away (not even any sleeping bags) and the tackle bags weren't even very heavy so were a pleasure to carry out. Before and after photos were taken but the person who took them does not use the forum. They may turn up on facebook at some point, I suppose. Other than a small amount of mould, you wouldn't know a camp had been there now.

It was nice to meet and have a pleasant chat with a group from Aberystwyth Uni Caving Club, in Lamb and Fox Chamber, us on our way out, them on their way in. Surprising, I suppose, as apparently there's never more than one group in the cave on any given day?

It was an enjoyable trip, with Storm Brian just adding to things really. You've got to laugh in weather like that! We rounded off the day with a very nice pint of ale in the Lamb and Fox, warming ourselves by the fire.

On a recent trip, with other cavers, we spotted some old digging gear and some other bits and bobs that had been stashed. We plan to take this out on our next trip.

No photos or edited videos to follow.

Offline NigR

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2017, 11:29:40 pm »
Well done, Huge - good to see my complaint to Cambrian Caving Council has had the desired effect. However, like yourself I am of the opinion that OUCC should have done it themselves and I hope they are appreciative of your efforts. Are you going to clear up their other camps for them too?

Your perception of the unpleasantness of litter left in caves is obviously very different to that of myself and my friends as we were genuinely shocked. Maybe you have seen more of it elsewhere than we have and this has raised your tolerance levels?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 11:40:23 pm by NigR »

Offline BradW

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2017, 12:18:25 pm »
What a refreshing post from Huge, who seems to be one of the silent majority, along with his colleagues, totally fed up with the far too noisy and childish public linen-washing cavers who have nothing better to do that try to score points off each other.

Perhaps it's time a few more cavers stopped sitting on the sidelines and spoke up decrying the attention-seeking and divisive comments that continue to plague the caving world.

Time that a few more cavers started some topics unsullied by insidious poison and demonstrated that most cavers really don't care what a few noisy and prominent posters think.

Offline ogofmole

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2017, 12:34:27 pm »
Quote
What a refreshing post from Huge, who seems to be one of the silent majority, along with his colleagues, totally fed up with the far too noisy and childish public linen-washing cavers who have nothing better to do that try to score points off each other.

Perhaps it's time a few more cavers stopped sitting on the sidelines and spoke up decrying the attention-seeking and divisive comments that continue to plague the caving world.

Time that a few more cavers started some topics unsullied by insidious poison and demonstrated that most cavers really don't care what a few noisy and prominent posters think.

Well said from one of the majority.

Offline royfellows

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2017, 01:19:27 pm »
Extreme polarisation of opinion leads to conflict and alienation of the majority.
No offence intended to anyone.
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Offline Greg Jones

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2017, 11:41:43 pm »
"Time that a few more cavers started some topics unsullied by insidious poison and demonstrated that most cavers really don't care what a few noisy and prominent posters think."

Well, as you are obviously unsullied, tell us what you think. I agree with you that it is high time that most cavers gave us their views; if they did then maybe this whole situation might have been resolved many years ago. What do most cavers think?

I await your new topic.
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2017, 06:30:06 am »
What a refreshing post from Huge, who seems to be one of the silent majority, along with his colleagues, totally fed up with the far too noisy and childish public linen-washing cavers who have nothing better to do that try to score points off each other.
It's not about scoring points. If you think it is, you've missed the point completely. I'd like nothing more than to be able to just go caving and let them get on with it, but I'm not about to sit back and say nothing while these things happen, because concrete is kind of hard to remove when it's set.

Perhaps it's time a few more cavers stopped sitting on the sidelines and spoke up decrying the attention-seeking and divisive comments that continue to plague the caving world.
How about you stop sitting on the sidelines and speak up and let them know that most cavers think concreting a cave is a stupid idea.  I get told that in person. A lot. I've yet to talk to a single person who thinks closing Drws Cefn is a good idea.

Time that a few more cavers started some topics unsullied by insidious poison and demonstrated that most cavers really don't care what a few noisy and prominent posters think.
"La la la la, I can't hear you". If you let people think you're ok with it, they'll do it again.
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Offline BradW

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2017, 07:39:30 am »
It was quite predictible that my post would prompt such challenges. I don't think you realise just how much this sort of response stifles friendly discourse here, and puts many off getting involved. I have no intention of engaging with such people. It makes me feel quit unconfortable and I thought long and hard before contributing anything at all. I am glad the cave has been cleaned up and that the reality of the situation is that the mess was NOTHING like as bad as we were being led to believe. At least as long as we trust Huge's report. Why would anyone try to mislead us like this? It was almost worthy of Donald Trump. One reply to Huge could almost have been written by Trump except there were some quite long words and sentences in it. Trying to take credit for inspiring the clean up and then suggesting the reality was that Huge is used to seeing filthy caves as a means to justify his reportedly shocked reaction. Anyway, the cave camp is clean which is much more important than the politics and stupid point scoring. Thank you again Huge and friends.

Online alastairgott

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2017, 10:38:44 am »
Because concrete is kind of hard to remove when it's set.

I don't think Roadworkers find it hard... and they tend to complain about it less.  :coffee:

Offline NigR

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2017, 10:50:37 am »
BradW,

Fact: Martin Laverty, Ian Adams, Rob Jones and myself were all shocked by the state of the abandoned camp.

Fact: Huge and his friends were not shocked.

Fact: It takes more disgusting litter left in caves to shock them than it does us.

Suggestion: Maybe it is because they have seen more of it in the past than we have, certainly none of us had ever seen anything like it.

Alternative suggestions welcome (other than calling us liars, please).


I am not "trying to take credit for inspiring the clean up" and would much prefer not to have had to write my initial complaint to Cambrian Caving Council asking that it be brought to the attention of the PDCMG. However, if I had not done so absolutely nothing would have been done about it, would it?

I do agree that Huge and his friends should be commended and I look forward to their future efforts to clean up other OUCC camps. These are a little deeper into the cave, so carrying the tackle bags full of crap out should be even more pleasurable next time.


Offline BradW

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2017, 12:01:35 pm »
Ship badger I think you already know what I think. I think it is great that there are still cavers prepared to sort out problems in caves, caused by others, without making an almighty fuss about. Without expecting a "prize" for doing it. I think it is great that they just go caving without any fuss or attention. They don't worry unduly about others' feelings on access or conservation, and certainly don't think that noisy and antagonistic comments do anything to further the case for responsible caving in the UK. Perhaps you were expecting me to make comments about messy cavers or a single entrance policy. Sorry to disappoint you.

Offline AWW

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2017, 12:29:21 pm »

Suggestion: Maybe it is because they have seen more of it in the past than we have, certainly none of us had ever seen anything like it.

Alternative suggestions welcome (other than calling us liars, please).

Your reasoning is fallacious. The suggestion could also be made that you and your companions are all prima donnas that exagerate what are relatively minor faults and problems and love to run around waving your hands and shouting "Shame, shame."
But that would be fallacious too, so I won't make the suggestion.

Well done Huge and friends.

Offline Alkapton

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2017, 01:02:59 pm »
 :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: To Huge and his butties.    :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:

You tend to be supprised by what you have not seen before.   If you have seen it all before then you are noit supprised.  So I find nothing wrong with eg. Stewarts or Nigs reasoning.   Neither do I see it as polerised axe-grinding unless the rule "Take nothing but photographs, leave nothing but footprints" is no longer seen as valid.
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Offline NigR

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2017, 01:09:38 pm »
AWW,

No, my reasoning is not fallacious. It is precisely as Alkapton has just described.

Thank you for the suggestion you have not made.

Whether faults are minor or not is all a matter of perception, isn't it? Clearly, yours is vastly different to ours. What might be acceptable to some is not acceptable to others. It is up to the individual to decide the standards they wish to keep. Sadly, many people's standards these days leave an awful lot to be desired as is most apparent here.

Offline BradW

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2017, 01:13:43 pm »
Sadly, many people's standards these days leave an awful lot to be desired as is most apparent here.

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Offline droid

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2017, 01:19:29 pm »
Confused of Tamworth.

If 'Huge' didn't want to make a fuss, as 'Brad' suggests, why post their commendable clean-up on a forum?

Just inform the relevant parties by PM. No post, no argument, no publicity.....


Aaaaah.....I see.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline AWW

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2017, 05:10:50 pm »
AWW,

No, my reasoning is not fallacious. It is precisely as Alkapton has just described.

Thank you for the suggestion you have not made.

Whether faults are minor or not is all a matter of perception, isn't it? Clearly, yours is vastly different to ours. What might be acceptable to some is not acceptable to others. It is up to the individual to decide the standards they wish to keep. Sadly, many people's standards these days leave an awful lot to be desired as is most apparent here.

Your reasoning is fallacious because you have made the leap to assuming that Huge and his friends must be used to great swathes of rubbish and thus not see anything wrong with what you and Stuart have described that, to me, engendered visions of the detritus of debauched revelry and associated filth that would require an effort akin to the clearing of Mr Trebus' house to rectify. However, the alternative assumption is that they turned the corner into the camp armed with a roll of council-strength refuse sacks, rubber gloves and litter pickers (for the more intimate items) to exclaim, "Well, this ain't nearly so bad as we thought it would be. Hey ho, lets get this spick and span and we'll be out of here" and set to with a whistle and a song.

Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2017, 07:37:08 pm »

Your reasoning is fallacious. The suggestion could also be made that you and your companions are all prima donnas that exagerate what are relatively minor faults and problems and love to run around waving your hands and shouting "Shame, shame."

You don't even know me.  I've been caving all over the world, not just in South Wales and as such, I think I'm qualified to say "It was a significant amount of rubbish"  The state of the camp in Draenen was an absolute disgrace.  Far worse than the annoying cluster of litter you sometimes find where cavers haven't bothered taking their empty coke cans and crisp packets out with them.

Perhaps you should reserve your judgement of people you don't know.

Anyway, well done to those involved in the clean up and "shame, shame" on those who caused the problem!

Kind regards,

Rob Jones
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Offline braveduck

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Re: Draenen clear-up (split from Cave Conservation Rewards)
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2017, 07:45:59 pm »
What a load of rubbish . :(