Author Topic: BREAKING: Twll Du entrance to Ogof Draenen blocked with reinforced concrete  (Read 5665 times)

Offline crickleymal

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Oh for fucks  sake
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Offline droid

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I know of at least one passage in the system that ends close to the surface in an area which is on CROW land and owned by a different landowner to the existing entrances. There may be more.

I report this in as unbiased a way as I can.

So, CRoW now applies to caving in law, and allows digging too?

I ask this in as unbiased a way as I can.
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Grow up and find something better to do with your time than come on here just to stir an troll.

Offline droid

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Pointing out inconsistencies isn't trolling.

Not everyone agrees with everything others say.

Deal with it big man.
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Offline Topimo

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Is there a way to silence a thread or certain people?

Online Kenilworth

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Is there a way to silence a thread or certain people?

Self-restraint? Or are you so weak and lazy you'd like someone else to restrain the world in your behalf?

Offline droid

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Topimo. If that's aimed at me: I deal best with people whose motives I trust. NewStuff is a good example. Don't always agree with the man but respect his views.


The disingenousness of suggesting that CRoW applies to caves (it doesn't, yet....) or that digging is OK in CRoW land if it doesn't involve much digging I have trouble with.

I also have trouble with empire builders.

If people make a cogent case for something I don't agree with I'll change my views. Won't do that for people demanding censorship, or simply barking orders because they think they are important.

Rant over..... :lol:

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Offline Simon Wilson

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Is there a way to silence a thread or certain people?

Somebody who is on the forum purely for the purpose of creating arguments is a troll and should be banned. There is one extremely unpleasant person on here who is far and away the worst troll and whom the forum would be better off without. He creates a nasty atmosphere and drives better people away.

Offline droid

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Don't put yourself down Simon  :lol:


I bet the PMs are flying now.... :lol: :lol:
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Offline Roger W

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I think David was suggesting that the "different landowner" might possibly be willing to allow digging on his land to open another entrance.

I'm sure there used to be a way of blocking off other members of the forum that you didn't like or agree with so that their posts became invisible to you (although other forum users could still see them).  The trouble is, I can't remember how it was done, and a quick forum search didn't help either.  (Searching for "block" or "blocking" just brought up lists of posts relating to the blocking of cave entrances...   :wall:   :wall:   :wall: )
"That, of course, is the dangerous part about caves:  you don't know how far they go back, sometimes... or what is waiting for you inside."   JRR Tolkein: "The Hobbit"

Offline Simon Wilson

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I think David was suggesting that the "different landowner" might possibly be willing to allow digging on his land to open another entrance.

I'm sure there used to be a way of blocking off other members of the forum that you didn't like or agree with so that their posts became invisible to you (although other forum users could still see them).  The trouble is, I can't remember how it was done, and a quick forum search didn't help either.

You can block people and I have tried dealing with the troll by doing that. Unfortunately it does not work.

The blocking feature is a waste of time because most people read the forum without logging in and the block only works if you are logged in.

Offline Badlad

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If you go to 'profile' and then 'modify profile' you will see an option for 'buddy/ignore list'.  Never tried it myself but it is one of the features.

Let's all be nice anyway  :hug:

Offline David Rose

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Nowhere in my unbiased and factual report do I suggest that it's ok to dig without permission on Crow land, and while the QC's opinion (from my sister) for the BCA says Crow should apply to caving, it's obvious that the government, Natural England etc don't yet accept this or we wouldn't be having a BCA campaign about it.

But Droid, you baffle me. Where have you found these supposed normative statements in my little post? They just aren't there. Roger W seems to have grasped the point of what I was saying without much difficulty.

Offline Bob Mehew

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Does CROW give a right to dig now; or is landowner permission still required?
Paragraph 1 of Schedule 2 of the act states "Section 2(1) does not entitle a person to be on any land if, in or on that land, he— ... (l) intentionally removes, damages or destroys any plant, shrub, tree or root or any part of a plant, shrub, tree or root,...".  So it might be construed that one can move soil provided you do not damage any part of a plant such as grass.  There is also the murky waters of whether digging also requires the agreement of the mineral rights holder as well as the land owner plus, of course any other person who has rights to use the land which might be infringed by digging. 

In simpler terms - CRoW does not give any such right.



Offline NewStuff

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Nice try Newstuff. "Dislodging topsoil" sounds like digging to me. This sort of "clever" wordplay just makes you look foolish.

Don't mangle what I said, it makes you look foolish. Normal exploratory caving, as you would do anywhere when pushing leads, avens etc, is likely to dislodge the thin layer of topsoil that I'm lead to believe exists there.. Even simple people can understand that. That may result on a clod to the head, or daylight.  Here, read it again. Go slowly on the big words eh?

Who said anything about digging? As I understand it, Twll Du, and other places, are under an exceedingly thin layer of topsoil. Just exploratory caving would likely dislodge it. So, to answer your question - Neither.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Rhys

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Oh yeah. The "we accidentally broke through" defence. Pretty unlikely to be believed. Especially if you post about it here first!

Offline NewStuff

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Oh yeah. The "we accidentally broke through" defence. Pretty unlikely to be believed. Especially if you post about it here first!

Given I don't frequent South Wales, let a lone cave or dig there, I'd say you're making shit up again.
I will not be digging, breaking through or even doing basic caving in Draenen. Clear enough for you?
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Offline droid

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But Droid, you baffle me. Where have you found these supposed normative statements in my little post? They just aren't there. Roger W seems to have grasped the point of what I was saying without much difficulty.

David.

Thank you and respect for being able to defend your position without insult or demanding banning or censorship.

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Offline Rhys

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Oh yeah. The "we accidentally broke through" defence. Pretty unlikely to be believed. Especially if you post about it here first!

Given I don't frequent South Wales, let a lone cave or dig there, I'd say you're making shit up again.
I will not be digging, breaking through or even doing basic caving in Draenen. Clear enough for you?

I'm not making anything up. I'm just aiming to inject a bit of balance and perhaps some harsh reality.

Offline NewStuff

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I'm not making anything up. I'm just aiming to inject a bit of balance and perhaps some harsh reality.

Balance? You? Pull the other one, it's got bells on it. I'm more likely to advocate closing all other entrances to this system with concrete than you are to be balanced.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Simon Beck

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I'm not making anything up. I'm just aiming to inject a bit of balance and perhaps some harsh reality.

Balance? You? Pull the other one, it's got bells on it. I'm more likely to advocate closing all other entrances to this system with concrete than you are to be balanced.

I appreciate you feel pretty strongly about open access Newstuff, but have wondered with your lack of interest in caving in South Wales why you are getting involved. Wouldn't 'Oral Proponent of multiple Entry' be a more appropriate Custom Title for the duration of this thread?

Offline droid

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'Oral Proponent of multiple Entry'

Sounds well dodgy that.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline NewStuff

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I'm not making anything up. I'm just aiming to inject a bit of balance and perhaps some harsh reality.

Balance? You? Pull the other one, it's got bells on it. I'm more likely to advocate closing all other entrances to this system with concrete than you are to be balanced.

I appreciate you feel pretty strongly about open access Newstuff, but have wondered with your lack of interest in caving in South Wales why you are getting involved. Wouldn't 'Oral Proponent of multiple Entry' be a more appropriate Custom Title for the duration of this thread?

I would love go to Draenen, but given some of the people involved in this clusterfuck, and past unfounded accusations ranging from opening up entrances to criminal damage, it's just inviting all sorts of shenanigans. Quite frankly - I can do without the shit. Can you imagine the shitslinging if someone opened up another entrance within a month of me caving in that neck of the woods? I know which applecarts I can upset in my neck of the woods, and which need to be kept upright, even if it's not ideal. I don't have the same detail of the situation down there.  It would be very silly of me to go rampaging in and say "fuck it all. If things were saner there, I'd happily go caving.

As for custom titles - that sounds like a dodgy german pr0n flick. In that vein, I prefer "fuck the PDCMG".  ;) :halo:
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Simon Beck

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I'm not making anything up. I'm just aiming to inject a bit of balance and perhaps some harsh reality.

Balance? You? Pull the other one, it's got bells on it. I'm more likely to advocate closing all other entrances to this system with concrete than you are to be balanced.

I appreciate you feel pretty strongly about open access Newstuff, but have wondered with your lack of interest in caving in South Wales why you are getting involved. Wouldn't 'Oral Proponent of multiple Entry' be a more appropriate Custom Title for the duration of this thread?

I would love go to Draenen, but given some of the people involved in this clusterfuck, and past unfounded accusations ranging from opening up entrances to criminal damage, it's just inviting all sorts of shenanigans. Quite frankly - I can do without the shit. Can you imagine the shitslinging if someone opened up another entrance within a month of me caving in that neck of the woods? I know which applecarts I can upset in my neck of the woods, and which need to be kept upright, even if it's not ideal. I don't have the same detail of the situation down there.  It would be very silly of me to go rampaging in and say "fuck it all. If things were saner there, I'd happily go caving.

As for custom titles - that sounds like a dodgy german pr0n flick. In that vein, I prefer "fuck the PDCMG".  ;) :halo:

No offence intended Newstuff, call it a poor attempt at injecting some humour in to this thread, and not necessarily at your expense either. I'm all for multiple entrances and hope they find an alternative so those opposed have something to stick in their pipes and smoke.

Offline Pegasus

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Administrator Comment Hi All, can we please tone it down, thank you