What foot ascender to get

A

AlexSheppard

New member
My foot ascender has vanished to the land of the lost kit so I'm in the market for a replacement. I've previously used the CT offering which i liked but found the catch a bit fiddly, especially when trying to take it off the rope on stuff where you're hanging or don't have much room.

With that in mind I've got my eyes on the new style pantin (old style being impossible to find it seems) and the camp turbo foot. Does anyone have any thoughts on which of those or other brands I don't know about would be a good buy?
 
Also discussed in 2014: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=16782.msg221876#msg221876
I'd go right foot Alex, unless you an get a left-handed chest jammer these days.
 
Alex before you buy one, I would have a look at the TSG, I had a quick look. But your probably best looking yourself, as you'll know where you put your stuff.

Think back, where did you last have it? Which caving trip? I never saw you procure it at the chapel which makes me think you misplayed it beforehand? Maybe on another weekend away?

Ever been to notts pot?
 
Mike Butcher said:
Also discussed in 2014: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=16782.msg221876#msg221876
I'd go right foot Alex, unless you an get a left-handed chest jammer these days.
Click to expand...

Personally I've had no issues with my left foot pantin... (I tried a right foot one once and it felt nowhere near as intuitive as the left to me)
 
Quite a long left/right foot pantin discussion from last year at https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=23197.msg292480#msg292480.
 
Cheers guys, I'll give those topics a look over but I'd already planned on getting a right footed one; I find the movement of right foot jammer and left foot footloop quite natural. Was more wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the different models.

Alistair I've been racking my brain and the only remaining place I can think my old one might be is P8, where I last remember using i. There's a group going in on Monday who are going to keep an eye out for me.
 
Sorry, I was mainly replying to JoW.

I wouldn't bother with the Camp Turbo Foot. It seems to cost more and I don't think you'd get much (if any) benefit from the rollers. It's not like foot ascenders regularly wear out on the plate like a Croll can.

I've not used one of the Climbing Technology ones. I've always found the Petzl ones to be good though.
 
Yeah I'm not too sure if the rollers would make much different on a foot ascender; I was more looking at the hole a carabiner could be clipped  into for transport and the extra sheath on the foot strap (Though the amazon page does have a review on it claiming they found it smoother running than the petzl ones at the bottom of the rope without much slack below you,  I'm taking that lone review with a pinch of salt)
 
I've used both the Pantin (Generation 3) and Turbofoot. The Turbofoot I've found to be far better. The Pantin has a tendency to snap on the ankle strap, and being so thin it's not the kind of thing you can spot early - once it starts to go it goes. The rollers on the Turbofoot do sod all but they certainly don't get in the way. The Turbofoot is better simply because it has a hole to clip a snapgate into (one I carry anyway for clipping my hand-jammer safety cord into bolts as a second long cows-tail, and for clipping away my footloop and Turbofoot) the snapgate prevents the jammer from pinging off the rope which I found happens far too much with the Pantin.

This alone makes it worth the ?5 more I paid for it (?52 as opposed to ?47 for a Pantin from Hitch n Hike just prior to their closure). It can also be used in a pinch as a pulley jammer for hauling bags/kibbles etc. Not rated for person weight though so wouldn't use it in a rescue.
 
JoW said:
Mike Butcher said:
Also discussed in 2014: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=16782.msg221876#msg221876
I'd go right foot Alex, unless you an get a left-handed chest jammer these days.
Click to expand...

Personally I've had no issues with my left foot pantin... (I tried a right foot one once and it felt nowhere near as intuitive as the left to me)
Click to expand...

I will never understand why folk suggest right pantin if you are right dominant. Your dominant leg should always remain with the footloop, absolute no brainer. The Pantin is an aid, not primary device! Not to mention how everything lies etc... But everyone should try all options before they buy.
 
Tangent_tracker said:
JoW said:
Mike Butcher said:
Also discussed in 2014: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=16782.msg221876#msg221876
I'd go right foot Alex, unless you an get a left-handed chest jammer these days.
Click to expand...

Personally I've had no issues with my left foot pantin... (I tried a right foot one once and it felt nowhere near as intuitive as the left to me)
Click to expand...

I'm right foot dominant but find it much easier with right foot pantain and left foot in footloop --- could be as left handed so use left handed simple

I will never understand why folk suggest right pantin if you are right dominant. Your dominant leg should always remain with the footloop, absolute no brainer. The Pantin is an aid, not primary device! Not to mention how everything lies etc... But everyone should try all options before they buy.
Click to expand...
 
Tangent_tracker said:
I will never understand why folk suggest right pantin if you are right dominant.
Click to expand...

One reason might be the information provided by Petzl, which has no mention of foot dominance.

7. Caving-type progression
It is preferable to use the right-foot PANTIN in conjunction with CROLL and ASCENSION ascenders.
The left-foot PANTIN is not recommended for this configuration, because of the increased complexity of passing re-belays.
- Simultaneous progression:
Push with both legs at the same time (more comfortable and more power).
- Alternating progression:
One leg after the other (very fast). The TORSE (or SECUR) shoulder strap should be looser to allow an upright chest position. This technique requires good physical fitness and serious training. It is easier to introduce yourself to this technique where you can be in contact with a wall.

Tangent_tracker said:
The Pantin is an aid, not primary device!
Click to expand...

Technically speaking, the chest ascender is the primary device and a Pantin and top ascender and foot loop combination are both aids.

Tangent_tracker said:
Your dominant leg should always remain with the foot loop, absolute no brainer.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about it being an absolute no brainer

Your dominant leg is your preferred leg and some people have different preferences for different activities. My dominant leg is my right leg so on a snowboard I should lead with my left foot forward. I don't, I'm Goofy.

I must admit to not getting on with foot-mounted ascenders. I just use a basic top ascender and a long length of accessory cord to make the foot loop and security cord. I have a tubular tape protector threaded over the foot loop section and usually get a good few years out of them. I have both feet in the foot loop unless kicking myself away from an obstruction, which I would generally do with my left foot. It's secured to an Omni Triact on the harness with a small Croll.

Over the past 40 years I must have tried nearly every type of rope climbing method and I always come back to the traditional Frog technique. I really can't see the point of using a foot mounted ascender unless you were using the Alternating Progression technique.

I always gaze upwards in amazement at Hidden Earth when people like Mark Sims demonstrate the technique so effortlessly. I'm usually out of breath just feeding the rope through the lowering device! 

At the end of the day, so long as the increased complexity of passing re-belays with a left foot Pantin has been mastered then the choice of left or right foot Pantin (other manufacturers are available) is really down to what you prefer.

Mark
 
Mark I agree with your comments and also go back to Frog, having sampled other techniques.
I have however persevered with the left foot Pantin and cannot understand what they mean by added complexity.
It did take a little time to get synchronised to climb with alternate legs, but as for complexity on re belays why is left worse than right?
Pete
 
Wardy said:
Mark I agree with your comments and also go back to Frog, having sampled other techniques.
I have however persevered with the left foot Pantin and cannot understand what they mean by added complexity.
It did take a little time to get synchronised to climb with alternate legs, but as for complexity on re-belays why is left worse than right?
Pete
Click to expand...

My experimentation with a Pantin never got as far as a re-belay so I can't comment on the complexity of passing one.

Mark
 
Mark:
I really can't see the point of using a foot mounted ascender unless you were using the Alternating Progression technique.
Click to expand...

Do you mean by ?Alternating Progression technique? a kind of rope-walking?

I often use a Pantin for more-or-less conventional ?Frogging? and find that it helps in two ways:
1 ? It helps to keep the rope below one?s chest jammer taut and so helps to prevent dragging up the rope as one stands up;
2 ? It helps to keep me in a more vertical posture, thus makes prusiking more efficient.
 
Fulk,

I was just using the quoted Petzl terminology with the Alternating Progression technique, but ropewalking is exactly what it is.

I maintain tension in the rope below my chest ascender by simply trapping the rope between my feet as I step up and untrap it when I move my top ascender up. Some do find this a little challenging at first but practice makes perfect.

It's important the rope is positioned on the outside of the foot loop or it flops between your legs and out of the foot loop when you move the top ascender up. I can't say as I've ever had a problem with the method on thicker ropes but sometimes on thinner, e.g. 8mm rope, my feet don't always trap the rope properly usually requiring only a small 1" shuffle forward of one foot in the foot loop.

A lot of the Hidden Earth 30m speed race and obstacle course contestants struggle to keep their foot ascenders on the rope when they first leave the floor and we are regularly asked to hold the rope tight below them until they get some weight of rope below them and then they usually have no problems. We get plenty of false starts due to this. I rarely get any false starts with my technique.

When I step up I usually push my legs behind me slightly and that generally keeps me vertical enough and it's pretty efficient, 196 steps out of Rowter Hole entrance shaft which is about 14" per step in old money.

As efficient as it is, I'm still knackered when I flop out of the entrance lid, but so are all the youngsters who follow me out with their Pantins. As to whether using a Pantin is any quicker than a traditional Frog set-up, I think that depends entirely on how fit you are. One thing is for sure, if I get on the bottom of the Rowter Hole entrance shaft rope before the Pantin user, they won't be going any quicker than me.

Mark
 
I've often said that if all Pantins disappeared overnight I'd give up caving !

Foot loop on the L, Pantin on R.  I've tried a L Pantin but R suits most pitch heads better, because they tend to get bolted by RH riggers......
 
Wardy said:
Mark I agree with your comments and also go back to Frog, having sampled other techniques.
I have however persevered with the left foot Pantin and cannot understand what they mean by added complexity.
It did take a little time to get synchronised to climb with alternate legs, but as for complexity on re belays why is left worse than right?
Pete
Click to expand...

This was my explanation on the thread I linked to above:

If your safety cord (be it a separate one or a cowstail) is to the left of your chest ascender on your central maillon and you put your right foot in the foot loop, the safety cord - hand ascender - foot loop combination makes a closed loop around the rope you are climbing, hence the (slight) added complication passing rebelays. This is very noticeable if you use a chicken/snoopy loop to keep your footloop attached to your foot .
Click to expand...

I think once you try it and notice it, it's much easier to envisage!
 
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