Author Topic: Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern  (Read 1031 times)

Offline martinb

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Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern
« on: February 13, 2019, 04:44:47 pm »
Dunno who's remit this is, but I'm thinking that the P-Bolts at the top of the climb into 1926 Passage in TCC may warrant a quick glance to see if all is ok with them. AFAIK they've been there for a fair few years, we (myself and markc of this parish) replaced the maillons about 5 or 6 years ago, but it is a tad damp in that cave.

I'm not sure if anyone has been up there since Jan 2018, there is also are 2 traverses with P-bolts from the Y-hang at the same point, maybe that could be checked too.

Vicky Turner at TCC should be contacted in the first instance, I can't check 'cos I'm not local anymore, not even in the same country!

Offline SamT

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Re: Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2019, 07:00:30 am »
I might be on for that. Im away for half term but might contact vicky o
when I get back. I used to be a guide there as a kid so would be ace to go and explore the bits we were never allowed to go into as guides.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2019, 10:15:45 am »
From martinb's post it sounds as though his concern might be about corrosion.

Sam Allshorn wrote an article for Descent in 2017 about corrosion of Maillons.

I'd suggest that stainless steel is the only metal that should ever be left permanently in contact with stainless anchors and that anybody planning to inspect these anchors should remove any carbon steel items.

Tie rope directly to the anchor or use stainless Maillons.

Offline martinb

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Re: Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2019, 04:49:58 pm »
From martinb's post it sounds as though his concern might be about corrosion.

Sam Allshorn wrote an article for Descent in 2017 about corrosion of Maillons.

I'd suggest that stainless steel is the only metal that should ever be left permanently in contact with stainless anchors and that anybody planning to inspect these anchors should remove any carbon steel items.

Tie rope directly to the anchor or use stainless Maillons.

Yup, the one's we replaced were bloody awful, I did check when I was last up there, and they looked ok, but someone with better knowledge than I should check them.

If you do shinny up there, then John Turner (Vicky's son) may wish to go up as well - but he doesn't have any SRT gear, he can do ladders as I rigged one and lifelined him, or give him a crash (sorry, wrong word) course. He's a bit of a magpie when it comes to Blue John, and he may want to scrat around and see if there's owt worth using in jewellry.

Sam, if you do go, please can you check all is ok with the new stuff below, there is quite a lot of scaff holding gloopy stuff and hard stuff up. Just to be on the safe side.


Offline bobdearman

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Re: Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2019, 02:18:31 pm »
As Equipment Officer for DCA I have checked the anchor database and can find no reference to any P bolts being installed in Treak Cliff Cavern. Whoever placed these bolts was not trained by DCA or authorised to do so and as such they will not be covered by BCA insurance. You have been warned !!!

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2019, 07:44:37 pm »
As Equipment Officer for DCA I have checked the anchor database and can find no reference to any P bolts being installed in Treak Cliff Cavern. Whoever placed these bolts was not trained by DCA or authorised to do so and as such they will not be covered by BCA insurance. You have been warned !!!

They might indeed not be placed by BCA approved insurers but that does not, I believe, mean that the installer is not insured should they be a BCA member.

What insurance do you think is being provided, and if (as I believe) the insurance is only the standard public liability _for the installer_, then how is that of any benefit to a user? It's entirely fair to suggest that DCA-installed P-bolts have probably been installed correctly and as safely as possible, which may or may not be true for random P-bolts. But cavers who choose to use any anchor, 'approved' or not, have chosen to use a bit of metal stuck in some rock by someone in the past with no guarantee it is or indeed was ever 'safe'. Cavers consent to the risk of injury or death every time to go caving and there would have to be some fairly significant negligence for there to be any liability on the part of the installer.

Although for reasons that completely elude me all the regional councils insist on almost adopting an unnecessary duty of care voluntarily over 'their' bolts.

I might have to dig out the email I have somewhere but I am sure that BCA insurance extends to any BCA member installing anchors, just as it does in climbing for BMC anchors. This should be completely irrelevant to users of those anchors, who should only care if they are safe.

Offline Moose

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Re: Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2019, 01:07:45 pm »
Ok... it was me.
I put the anchors there in the first place a few years back now. It was while we were putting through the ventilation and sorting the top entrance out.
Given that it's 40m from the rope to the gate, the amount of traffic this route gets (virtually zero) and the fact that you can get to the same place via the top gate by not using the rope, are we really not making some thing out of nothing here?

Offline martinb

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Re: Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2019, 04:08:53 pm »
Ok... it was me.
I put the anchors there in the first place a few years back now. It was while we were putting through the ventilation and sorting the top entrance out.
Given that it's 40m from the rope to the gate, the amount of traffic this route gets (virtually zero) and the fact that you can get to the same place via the top gate by not using the rope, are we really not making some thing out of nothing here?

Thought the top gate was blocked ages ago?

Offline Moose

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Re: Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2019, 04:53:38 pm »
Correct!

Offline T pot 2

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Re: Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2019, 11:27:27 am »
Any comment on this topic from Lord Whatwoleigh?

Offline bograt

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Re: Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2019, 02:29:37 pm »
MODERATORS--- Please straighten this thread out, I fail to see what Hydrajaws in a Yorkshire cave have to do with bolts in a Derbyshire cave---
Aim low, achieve your goals, avoid disappointment

Online MarkS

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Re: Anchors/P-Bolts - Treak Cliff Cavern
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2019, 03:09:35 pm »
MODERATORS--- Please straighten this thread out, I fail to see what Hydrajaws in a Yorkshire cave have to do with bolts in a Derbyshire cave---

Moderator Comment Yes, you're right, and I was partly to blame :-[. I've split the off-topic to posts to a separate topic: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=24714.