Author Topic: BCA Ballot Results  (Read 4198 times)

Offline BCA Secretary

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BCA Ballot Results
« on: December 16, 2019, 08:10:21 pm »
BCA BALLOT RESULT


We can announce the results of the ballot which closed at 23:59pm on Friday 13th December.

The constitutional changes around which this ballot was based were put forward at the 2019 AGM and passed in both houses at the meeting, hence their progression to a ballot of all members. All constitutional changes require 70% support in both the House of Individuals and the House of Groups in order to be implemented.

The changes were intended to remove the two-house voting system at General Meetings, leaving voting by individual members (CIMs and DIMs) only. They would also create a requirement for online voting to be made available, whereby all motions that achieve a defined level of support at the AGM itself (not just constitutional matters), as well as contested elections, are put to an online vote of all individual members for a roughly one-month period after the AGM.

The ballot was conducted using an electronic system developed specifically for this ballot. Access to vote was controlled via a unique ballot ID assigned and sent to all members.

All members for who we had email addresses were emailed ballot details and a ballot ID on 8th November. For all the members we did not have email addresses for, as well as those for who we received an email bounce-back notification, a postal letter was sent in the week commencing 11th November, including a ballot slip for anyone wanting to vote by return postage.

The results are as follows:

House of Individuals:
Votes to support the motion: 854 (82.5%)
Votes to reject the motion: 181 (17.5%)
Turnout: 1035 of 6285 (16.5%)

House of Groups:
Votes to support the motion: 66 (76.7%)
Votes to reject the motion: 20 (23.3%)
Turnout: 86 of 185 (46.5%)

Result:
Both houses exceed the 70% support requirement, and so the motion has passed.

Statistics on postal returns:
The total number of postal returns was only 56 (5% of the total ballot turnout), meaning 95% of voters chose to use the online system to cast their vote. Of those 5% who returned their ballot by post, 66% voted to support the motion.

Five postal ballot papers were rejected; one due to no ballot ID having been entered by the voter, two due to the ballot IDs being entered illegibly or incorrectly (considerable effort was made to try to decipher these), and two that arrived on Saturday 14th December, thus after the deadline.

Thank you to everyone who has worked very hard to make this ballot happen.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 08:36:39 pm by Pegasus, Reason: added header and logo for home page »

Offline Benfool

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2019, 08:23:30 pm »
Great news :)

B

Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2019, 08:29:47 pm »
Excellent result.  A cheerful prospect going forward compared to last weeks ballot.  Well done to all involved I am sure it required a lot of volunteer effort. 

It must be clear that the levels of both group and individual support for this vote indicate support for the modernising agenda.  Well lets hope so.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2019, 08:38:40 pm »
Excellent, well done to all involved.

So good to see the BCA modernising and improving, thanks for the support cavers  ;D :thumbsup:

Offline JasonC

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2019, 09:38:40 pm »
Agreed that it's a positive result.

But, it's a pity that the turnout was so low, more responses would have made the mandate for change clearer.  Still, no-one can say they weren't given every opportunity to vote, I don't think the BCA could have done more to publicise the ballot.

Of the 83.5% of individuals who didn't vote, I wonder what proportion got the invitation by email (and thus have no excuse that it was too difficult) ?

Offline Madness

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2019, 10:03:59 pm »
It is a shame that so many couldn't be bothered to vote. It does seem to back up the suggestion that the majority only see the BCA as a source of third party insurance and as long as they keep getting that they're not bothered what else the BCA do.

Thank you to everyone involved in organising the vote.


Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2019, 10:14:23 pm »
Superb!!
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 10:52:22 pm by Cap'n Chris »

Offline pwhole

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2019, 10:39:33 pm »
It's a rubbish turnout for something so easy and so important, and does make the result somewhat ambiguous. But rules are rules I guess, so the result stands. It would be a shame if the insurance were the only reason for membership.

Offline menacer

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2019, 10:52:29 pm »
Awesome result.

Congratulations to all involved, this was not an easy task and I'm so pleased the effort paid off.

I love democracy.

May I be the first to suggest that:-
 
"The ballot was rigged"
"People didn't know what they were voting for"
"Russian interference won the election"
"Only racists and thick people voted"
"People were swayed by far right Facebook memes"
 
Just want to get this in before the losing side do...
.... And I'm feeling troll-like this evening.

Do you think the old cavers will be saying the youth vote stole their future?

 :tease: :ras:




Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done.

Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2019, 10:53:45 pm »
I expect that for a lot of BCA members caving is a very small part of their lives. The way a national organisation functions may not be very important to them.  I used to get ballots from a building society both to elect people onto the executive and to change the constitution or whatever.  It always went in the bin as I just wasn't that bothered what they did.

I seem to remember from the Crow ballot that the Electoral Reform Service that ran it, commented that low turnouts were very much the norm for small sporting organisations and the like.  So it appears this sort of return is quite normal and actually quite high on one side.

Offline BCA Secretary

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2019, 11:55:52 pm »
I see in my own clubs that there are loads of members who only want to go caving maybe once or twice a year (in fact, some never at all, they just like having the option to do so should the wish arise, and they are happy to support the sport). As Badlad says, caving is only a small part of their lives. While they might be happy to pay their subs to support their club and/or BCA, the interest in BCA 'politics' just isn't sufficient for them to want to get involved in ballots, no matter how easy we make those ballots to get involved with.

The BCA is working extremely hard at the moment to promote the benefits of membership, and of all the good work for caving nationally that is done with their membership money (it really isn't just about the public liability insurance):

Why join the BCA? (Taken from separate thread on membership fees)
The BCA is the UK’s national body for underground exploration. Your membership money goes towards funding conservation, education, access, training workshops, anchor installation, the British Caving Library (a library, archive and key resource), publications on matters that affect caving, international expeditions, plus numerous other activities which benefit cavers nationally. Almost all cavers will benefit from work funded by BCA from your membership money, both directly and via the Regional Councils, as well as via our recent efforts to support student and youth caving. Your money goes back into the sport, as well as covering the cost of the public liability insurance which we provide to all full members as a membership benefit. Thank you for joining the BCA!


I think... I hope... that message is starting to cut through a little but there is a lot more work needed, not only to showcase what we do, but also to actually do more for caving nationally with the funds we have. At the last Council meeting we passed the first budget with a deficit for years, with that money going to excellent caving causes and a reduction in fees, while also removing restrictions on what regional councils can claim for, encouraging them to do more for their regions. About £5000 has gone our in the last few weeks to support conservation, access and cave monitoring projects in Mendips and Derbyshire. The coming Council meeting in January has more spending proposals already lined up for discussion.

Of course, persuading those for who caving is only an occasional hobby to join BCA for the good of the sport is one thing, but persuading them that they want to participate in the 'politics' is another. That might be a battle beyond our capabilities, but the efforts to inform more people of our work certainly can't hurt when it comes to inspiring people to have their say.

Perhaps a better way to look at the turnout is that over 1000 individual people and 86 groups did care enough to participate... 10-20 times more than what most village hall meeting rooms would accommodate.

Therefore, the turnout can be viewed in a more positive light if you try hard enough  :)

Offline HardenClimber3

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2019, 11:38:50 am »
As has already been said, many more people / groups have been involved than the usual agm.

The BCA's adopted voting system is astonishinly easy to use (I have votes for various other bodies...).

I think it takes us in the right direction and I'm sure the turnout by individuals is pretty typical of organisation like BCA.

I am surprised that more 'groups' didn't use their vote.....

Anyway, excellent outcome.

Offline ahinde

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2019, 10:58:59 am »
I like to think that of the 170 plus BCA registered clubs - most of the large clubs made the effort to vote in the house of groups. There are a lot of micro clubs who are members of BCA to access regional permit schemes and unlikely to be engaged in BCA "politics". Similarly , the list of Mining Groups and multi activity clubs on BCA are unlikely to be excited about the way BCA does business. With this in mind I feel that most committed cavers have been reasonably well represented both individually and in the house of groups through this ballot.
Thank you to everyone who helped to design and run the ballot. Good luck with the modernisation program at BCA. :hug:

Offline mikem

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2019, 12:29:06 pm »
As the quorum for a general meeting is 10, then a 10,000% increase on that ain't to be sniffed at...

Sightly better than the otherwise similar percentages for BMC voting.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 12:42:13 pm by mikem »

Offline PeteHall

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2019, 10:56:25 pm »
I assume that the results will be circulated to the membership (clubs and individuals) by post/email as not all members use the forum.

So far I haven't seen anything on the email, either direct or via any of my clubs...
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Offline BCA Secretary

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2019, 09:14:43 am »
I'd love to email all of our members (or at least the ~4000 we have email addresses for) to inform them of the ballot result. Unfortunately however I do not have access to member data to allow me to do this. Furthermore our webmaster is still being refused access to this data despite an AGM and Council mandate to provide this access so that he can redevelop key BCA systems. I will ask those who do control access to our data whether they would be willing to send out an email. Rest assured, this is not a situation I am altogether happy with and am fighting to change.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2019, 09:18:05 am »
I assume that the results will be circulated to the membership (clubs and individuals) by post/email as not all members use the forum.

So far I haven't seen anything on the email, either direct or via any of my clubs...

The results were posted onto the BCA website and the link circulated as best I could across social media :)

https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php

Offline mikem

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2019, 09:32:54 am »
& presumably will be in the next newsletter...

Offline Cookie

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2019, 09:52:12 am »
I'd love to email all of our members (or at least the ~4000 we have email addresses for) to inform them of the ballot result. Unfortunately however I do not have access to member data to allow me to do this. Furthermore our webmaster is still being refused access to this data despite an AGM and Council mandate to provide this access so that he can redevelop key BCA systems. I will ask those who do control access to our data whether they would be willing to send out an email. Rest assured, this is not a situation I am altogether happy with and am fighting to change.

I no longer use this forum because of the attacks and lies about me posted here by "fellow" BCA Council members.

This post is a total misrepresentation of the truth.
Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

Offline BCA Secretary

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2019, 10:17:54 am »
But it is exactly the truth Cookie.

The AGM accepted a motion that instructed specific accesses to key BCA systems to be granted to our new webmaster. You ignored repeated emails from me asking for these accesses to be granted, and then outright refused them in a face to face meeting.

The October Council meeting voted to endorse the AGM motion and further instructed you to provide these accesses. You have ignored further emails from me asking for this to be enacted and have ignored this request.

You are holding key BCA systems hostage from members and Council, refusing to give access to them where instructed, and consequently blocking them from much needed modernisation. Furthermore having seen your recent emails to the IT Working Group I also know that you are working behind the scenes to create rules intended to sustain the status quo, scupper what was agreed at the AGM and further block the efforts of those seeking (and sadly having to fight hard) to move the BCA into the modern world.

I did not want to voice these issues in such specific detail on a public forum nor resort to personal attacks. However as you have accused me of lying (or 'misrepresenting the truth', a pretty serious attack in its own right) then I am clearly going to defend myself from these accusations.

I was elected BCA Secretary on a modernising agenda and that is exactly what I am going to deliver.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2019, 12:49:43 pm »
Cookie, full disclosure, Matt and Gary were two of the many people that introduced me to caving a few years ago, I respect them but if there is some balance which isn’t being reflected please could you let us know.

Otherwise I feel I cannot judge misrepresentation because only one side of the story is being represented, you must understand that’s how people will feel.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2019, 01:42:05 pm »


I no longer use this forum because of the attacks and lies about me posted here by "fellow" BCA Council members.

This post is a total misrepresentation of the truth.

Administrator Comment A reminder to all forum members to please report any incidents of personal attacks and they will be dealt with accordingly - discussion is welcome on UKC, however be polite and respectful. With regards to 'lies', UKC is not the 'caving police' and cannot moderate on who said what to who.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2019, 06:21:19 pm »
I no longer use this forum because of the attacks and lies about me posted here by "fellow" BCA Council members.
This post is a total misrepresentation of the truth.

Given that I've not heard a single, solitary person recount any other version of events than has been posted above, I find it very hard to believe there's any reasonable explanation for you to carry on refusing to give the login details as instructed.

If that's not the case, then please, set your case out here, defend your corner, tell us what lies you think have been said, and by whom.
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Offline royfellows

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2019, 06:38:40 pm »
I no longer use this forum because of the attacks and lies about me posted here by "fellow" BCA Council members.
This post is a total misrepresentation of the truth.

Given that I've not heard a single, solitary person recount any other version of events than has been posted above, I find it very hard to believe there's any reasonable explanation for you to carry on refusing to give the login details as instructed.

If that's not the case, then please, set your case out here, defend your corner, tell us what lies you think have been said, and by whom.

Here, here.

There is a phrase which keeps flashing up in the back om mind. "Court Order".
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Offline Madness

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2019, 10:54:00 pm »
So...

I a correct in assuming that the membership data is only held in one place and that is on one of Cookie's hardrives/whatever? Perhaps a lesson should be learned from this saga. Any data should really be backed up on a regular basis and stored somewhere else.

Offline BCA Secretary

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2019, 11:33:33 am »
Hi Madness. I don't know the exact answer to your question. However, although Cookie and I fundamentally disagree on the way forward for the BCA and its IT infrastructure, I would credit him with my confidence that member data (in whatever format that takes) is backed up and stored securely in compliance with GDPR.

Offline moorebooks

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2019, 01:34:25 pm »
Hi Madness. I don't know the exact answer to your question. However, although Cookie and I fundamentally disagree on the way forward for the BCA and its IT infrastructure, I would credit him with my confidence that member data (in whatever format that takes) is backed up and stored securely in compliance with GDPR.

You wonder why so little interest , the guff above as bog all to do with people enjoying their activity at whatever level. All this seems worse than the Brexit debacle.

Far be it from me but whoever is with holding data must have good reason and suggest a face to face meeting to sort it out  rather than airing dirty washing in a public arena. The BCA if necessary should take legal action if the matter has become so entrenched.

Mike

Offline David Rose

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2019, 02:10:25 pm »
They have already had a meeting, and it's public because this issue is now on the agenda for the BCA council meeting again - though everyone thought it had been finally sorted out at the least one. The agendas are public documents.

Offline moorebooks

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2019, 03:03:42 pm »
They have already had a meeting, and it's public because this issue is now on the agenda for the BCA council meeting again - though everyone thought it had been finally sorted out at the least one. The agendas are public documents.

The spat doesn't need to be - it just drags everything down. Just sort it by whatever means

Offline Dave Tyson

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2019, 05:16:32 pm »
Well I guess the pragmatic approach is for the new webmaster to set up a secure page where people can register there email address (and accept the GDPR provisions) and put a note in with the BCA membership cards asking them to visit the site and register.

Dave

Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2019, 05:32:26 pm »
Well I guess the pragmatic approach is for the new webmaster to set up a secure page where people can register there email address (and accept the GDPR provisions) and put a note in with the BCA membership cards asking them to visit the site and register.

Dave

Except people won’t do that, and the whole idea of modernising is making everything slicker. So pragmatic isn’t exactly the word I would use..

Offline 2xw

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2019, 06:17:58 pm »
Would make more sense just to make an email address mandatory when you pay with an online form. And the minority who want a postal vote/don't want to provide an email pay extra.

Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2019, 06:23:23 pm »
For those interested - copied below the full agenda item for the January BCA meeting.  Freely available in the public domain as it should be. 

(7) Action over ongoing BCA IT situation – Request for Council intervention by Matt Ewles

At the AGM, members voted to appoint Gary Douthwaite as our Webmaster, with a mandate to:
“redevelop the website including, but not limited to BCA online and communications systems.” and to
receive specified accesses and permissions to the existing systems to enable him to do this. The
intention was for Gary to lead the redevelopment, with input along the way from those already
involved in BCA’s IT infrastructure (who I, naively, had hoped would be excited about this
opportunity) to ensure a smooth but expedited transition to modern systems.

After the AGM, David Cooke repeatedly ignored my requests for these accesses to be granted and in
a face-to-face meeting he refused them. BCA Council responded to this in October by reiterating the
AGM’s instruction, which I hoped would be enough. Since then, requests to David for the accesses to
be granted have once again been totally ignored. We remain no further forward.

Furthermore, David has since commenced discussions with the IT Working Group (ITWG), that have
focussed on both discrediting Gary’s intentions, and trying to set out in writing who does what. To
quote the last sentence of an email string sent to the ITWG on 10th December:

“If we are to go down this formal route... [referring to David’s proposed roles and responsibilities]...
then it would be a requirement for the Webmaster to gain the approval of the ITWG before
commencing work that comes under the ITWG's remit.”
The full email string is not private and can thus be supplied on request to any Council member who
wishes to verify the context of this quotation.

In summary, David is now driving a proposal through the ITWG to prevent Gary working on anything
other than the public website without specific ITWG permission (which most probably would not be
granted). Be in no doubt that this is a deliberate agenda to overturn what has been agreed by our
membership and Council, to prevent Gary fulfilling the remit he was appointed to at the AGM.

Let me be absolutely clear on the current situation. A member of the BCA team is ignoring the
wishes of the AGM and of BCA Council, is holding key BCA systems hostage, refusing to relinquish
access, and is using his own Working Group to drive an agenda to overturn AGM and Council
decisions. Does BCA Council consider this contempt of AGM and Council acceptable?

I personally find this situation intolerable. The BCA’s systems, including BCA Online, and our
membership infrastructure are extremely dated and disjointed. Yet nothing changes; just relentless
talk and stubborn defence of the status quo. Years of eloquent and diplomatic talking at meetings
have ‘covered-up’ the barricades behind the scenes to anyone wanting to create something new or
better (Gary is not the first prospective IT moderniser to be driven away by this).

Let me clarify what I am seeking in terms of IT systems redevelopment:

I want a simple, electronic way to renew membership for all categories; one that automatically
populates a professional, ideally custom, database, and that links directly to options for electronic
payment (including with direct debit or equivalent); or at least has the capacity to do this at a later
date. I want a BCA Online that works directly off that database and that allows individual members
to log in, change/update their contact details and email preferences, vote on ballots etc. I want a
back-end to the new BCA website that incorporates an email system with different email ‘groups’
(e.g. Council, Groups, DIMs, CIMs, those who have not opted out of the newsletter, etc) all running
from the live database. Furthermore, the infrastructure should be built using modern coding, which
any decent web developer could pick up and work with, and a non-technical admin interface for BCA
Officers to use. All systems (website, BCA Online, membership) should be on BCA owned webspace,
consistently branded, and seamlessly integrated. None of this is difficult, but will never happen
unless the incumbent make way for (and ideally support) those with the skills to deliver this. Such
systems are common place in other membership organisations and would stop the current practice
of stressful activity for volunteers and staff alike leading up to each annual renewal.

As far as I’m concerned, the buck stops at this meeting. There is little to be gained by Council
reiterating its previous instruction, as this has been ignored and will continue to be ignored. Plus,
it is futile instructing for offline resolutions or Working Group input; that has failed. All options for
Gary and David to work together have been totally exhausted. A clear decision is needed at this
meeting to close the situation, so the people involved know where they stand.

I deeply regret that this situation exists, and that I have had to bring it up in such strong and
personal terms in a Council meeting agenda, but I am at the end of my tether on this. As someone
who was appointed Secretary on a modernising and reforming agenda (to which getting the right
IT systems in place is critical), I am not prepared to beat about the bush on this anymore.

Council can either decide that they accept David’s decision to withhold accesses, and Gary will
withdraw his offer to redevelop BCA’s systems. You will hear no more about this from him or me.
Alternatively, my recommendation is that Council instruct Gary to redevelop/replace the systems
to which David is currently withholding access, including BCA Online, the membership database
and membership systems. I suggest that such action is accompanied by suitable preventative
measures to avoid further activity behind the scenes to frustrate this process.

Fundamentally the question is: Can any member of BCA Council ignore Council decisions just
because they think they know better? The answer is no unless you want anarchy.

Matt Ewles (Secretary), supported by Howard Jones (Treasurer / Insurance Manager)

Offline badger

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2019, 07:04:13 pm »
I can't help feeling this should not be discussed here. this forum cannot solve or help solve the issue, stating what was voted on at the agm or council meeting is not going to help resolve the issue. unfortunately I now think this is an issue for the exec to sort















Offline MarkS

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2019, 08:08:21 pm »
To be fair, Matt only offered the information as a result of questions asked that related to it directly. I certainly would not want to speak for Matt, but I suspect that is why he has posted information here, not because he considers UKC as a good means of resolving BCA Council issues.

Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2019, 08:38:36 pm »
The request asking for council intervention is from two of the three members of the executive (and is in the public domain).  Clearly they are unable to deal with this difficult situation themselves.  Council is made up of individuals who are there to represent all sectors of the membership.  Most cavers who view this forum are members of BCA and have a right to know what is going on in their name.  If they then wish to discuss it they can, if they don't, at least they can be informed if they so wish.  Some may also wish to speak to their representatives to BCA about it.  This issue is long past being dealt with privately - the BCA secretary is telling us that route has failed.  It is a serious matter that demands transparency and I hope it can be resolved quickly.

Offline Jopo

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2019, 10:27:12 pm »
Quote
I can't help feeling this should not be discussed here. this forum cannot solve or help solve the issue, stating what was voted on at the agm or council meeting is not going to help resolve the issue. unfortunately I now think this is an issue for the exec to sort

Like Badlad I think this has gone beyond well closed doors. I hope this is the start of a wind of change in letting the BCA members know what is really going on. Further I for one think that those who are on the ITWG group and Dave Cook should explain their actions and the reasons why. Maybe they have a point and if they have the courage of their convictions why not be open?
 Jopo













Offline David Rose

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2019, 12:55:11 pm »
One of the reasons the BCA has been regarded by many as distant from the caving world is its failure to air such disputes in public in the past. It's also a reason why it has found it so hard to modernise. Doing so here is a way for the organisation and its elected council to be more accountable.

The case presented by Matt is, to put it mildly, troubling. I choose my words carefully.

If Cookie has a response, I urge him to post it. He may not love UKcaving, but this cat is well and truly out of the bag. He has suggested Matt's statements are false. I really think he needs to be more specific, or we are left on one side with a detailed, serious case, and on the other, mere abuse.

Offline BradW

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2019, 01:28:58 pm »
Social media is the very last place any dispute, private or public, should happen. Have we not learnt anything from Musk, Trump etc etc.

Offline mikem

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2019, 01:38:01 pm »
Part of BCA's problem was the lack of communication generally in the past, not specific situations.

& suggesting someone's argument is "mere abuse" is somewhat inflammatory, especially as it's nothing like what used to go on on this forum when it was still part of UKClimbing...

Offline moorebooks

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2019, 02:16:25 pm »
I can't help feeling this should not be discussed here. this forum cannot solve or help solve the issue, stating what was voted on at the agm or council meeting is not going to help resolve the issue. unfortunately I now think this is an issue for the exec to sort

Totally agree

Offline Brains

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2019, 03:40:08 pm »
Part of BCA's problem was the lack of communication generally in the past, not specific situations.

& suggesting someone's argument is "mere abuse" is somewhat inflammatory, especially as it's nothing like what used to go on on this forum when it was still part of UKClimbing...
To call someone a liar without substantiation is abuse, albeit quite mild in terms of what could be stooped to.
To hear another side of the issue would be beneficial, particularly as the matters are already in the public domain.
For what reason is database access being denied? Is it just the Mendips against the rest of the UK, are there legitimate reasons? Is it just sour grapes? Who on the outside of this bubble knows?
Perhaps the new broom at BCA could play devils advocate and hazard a few bullet points as to the details?
Please tell me it isnt just "we like the old ways and you cant have your way"

Offline mikem

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2019, 04:11:30 pm »
However, escalating the name calling ain't gonna help anyone - not that I expect Cookie will respond here, as his comment was mainly aimed at previous threads on the forum.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2019, 04:42:20 pm »
However, escalating the name calling ain't gonna help anyone - not that I expect Cookie will respond here, as his comment was mainly aimed at previous threads on the forum.

As far as anyone can tell, He's taken the ball (login details) that belong to someone else (the BCA), because he didn't get to play in the position he wanted (Elections at the BCA AGM). That's without airing some of the conspiracy theories floating around that may or may not be accurate.

If this is allowed to happen without decisive action of behalf of the BCA, then many, many people will just let it burn. People that, until now, have put in the time and effort to help change things for the better. If this is allowed to happen, why would you put energy and time into bringing something into touch and upto date, if it can be derailed by one person that doesn't like it? The BCA seems to be trying to be more transparent, and I applaud that. No more skullduggery and hiding in the shadows. Get it in the open, get it sorted, and move on.

As far as abuse goes - If stating facts make someone look like an arse, then maybe they're acting like an arse.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Martin Laverty

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2019, 04:47:46 pm »
I note that BCA has a perfectly good forum of its own where the initial post of this thread also appeared [ https://british-caving.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1565 ] - without any responses so far.

A large proportion of topics and posts on https://british-caving.org.uk/phpBB3 have been made by David Cooke and the person named on the IT Working Group page as responsible for the BCA (sic, not just BCRA) membership system, David Gibson.

Would it not be more appropriate to use BCA's system for discussion with its officers, where they might be less inhibited from responding? Reference to significant posts, and analysis thereof, could then be made on this forum...

Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2019, 05:02:29 pm »
I note that the 'Ballot results' post on the BCA forum has had 8 views. 

The same 'Ballot results' post on here has had over 2500. 

It is all about communicating with the membership.  BCA has its own web site, face book page and forum, but it also sends news and items out to all the caving media it can reach, Descent, ukcaving, darkness etc.

BCA has it's own board on ukcaving free of charge as do several other organisations (whereas Descent charges £3,000 for the six BCA adverts per year).  The thread about the ballot when it first came out had 140 posts and over 10,000 views.  It was really the only place it was discussed with opinions given from all quarters.  Perhaps one day we'll pass ukcaving over to BCA for them to run and manage  :o

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2019, 06:01:50 pm »
I was probably one of the 8, immediately after reading Martin’s post.

I don’t know about handing ukcaving over to the BCA to ‘manage’, I’d be more inclined to cancel my £17.00 payment for next years BCA membership and give it to ukcaving because they appear to do more for British caving than our current national body.

Matt and Gary are keen and eager to take BCA forward and I for one am keen to support them.

Lets get the information handed over to them straight away and stop f__kin’ about.

I’m growing less and less confident in the ability of our supposed National body to function. Please prove me wrong and get it sorted before Brexit day.

There’s no doubt this topic will be discussed at length by the Buttered Badgers when we are out in Mulu next week. If the situation isn’t resolved when we get back I think I will encouraging my club to withdraw its BCA membership.

Mark
 

Offline DavidGibson

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Re: BCA Ballot Results
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2020, 12:45:50 pm »
It is a shame that so many couldn't be bothered to vote. It does seem to back up the suggestion that the majority only see the BCA as a source of third party insurance and as long as they keep getting that they're not bothered what else the BCA do.

It would be interesting to know the turnout for DIMs v. CIMs
BCRA Secretary from 1/1/2010.

 

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