The Eyam Spirit???

[Roger W]

A few hundred years ago, when the people of Eyam found that the plague was loose in their village, they all stayed at home - at great cost to themselves - to avoid spreading the plague into the surrounding areas.

Today when there's a more infectious version of the Covid loose in the South-East and Boris puts them into Tier 4, what do the people there do?   Cram themselves like sardines into trains out of London so that they can a) infect each other, and b) carry their version of the virus all over the country.

 

[Andy C]

"...the richer sort of people, especially the nobility and gentry from the west part of the city, thronged out of town with their families and servants in an unusual manner; and this was more particularly seen in Whitechappel; that is to say, the Broad Street where I lived; indeed, nothing was to be seen but waggons and carts, with goods, women, servants, children, &c.; coaches filled with people of the better sort and horsemen attending them, and all hurrying away; then empty waggons and carts appeared, and spare horses with servants, who, it was apparent, were returning or sent from the countries to fetch more people..."

from A Journal of the Plague Year by Daniel Defoe (1722)

[Laurie]

I was going to spend our traditional Christmas in Mendip along with a few other MNRC members and my covid stricken wife's ashes.
I'll now be at home, alone.
Thanks Boris

[pwhole]

I'm still struggling to see how many people can 'leave London' with only a few hours notice. Don't they really live there? Do they really live at the place they're running off to? Are they going to go back to London eventually - in several months? If so, where will they be staying till then? In most cities in Britain people live where they live, and can't 'leave'. It seems completely different in that London. Though my friends who live there do actually live there, and don't have another house somewhere else to 'leave' to.

The only crumb of comfort in this is seeing the faces of the newsreaders on every channel, who all look like they're sat in a pool of shit as they realise that they now are in a worse social predicament than most of us. Apart from Kay Burley, who's already had a fortnight to get used to the idea. I bet she's doing OK though - wish I had her number.

Anyway, as portents of the future, now the present, it's hard to find a better example than this:

[2xw]

All my mates who are recent graduates who live in London could leave pretty easily to see family back up north. Just going home for longer I guess. I know a lot of people who've been chopping and changing where they live for various lockdown related reasons - I went to live with my in laws for 6 months rather than my shitty student bedroom in York (actually ended up moving four times this year)

[thehungrytroglobite]

It is indeed trued that the people of Eyam isolated themselves during an outbreak of bubonic plague - although unfortunately this noble act was very unsuccessful. The rattus rattus carrier of the xenopsylla cheopis vector thrived in areas of crowded people because it needed warmth to survive - if the people of Eyam had moved up onto the moors for a week or two, far fewer people would have died! They didn't know all this at the time of course.

Covid is a very different matter because it is transmitted through person-person contact. Remaining in a locked down area is, therefore, the most sensible option. However I think we need to consider the reasons behind many people's participation in the 'London exodus' - to avoid being stuck by themselves for Christmas (as someone who spent 3 months by themselves in the first lockdown at a significant cost to my mental health, I can't imagine having to do that over Christmas in the long nights); to escape the area because they are more vulnerable and are at greater risk of becoming fatally ill; etc. 

Instead of blaming the people 'cramming themselves like sardines' and carrying 'their' version of the virus (this statement is somewhat reminiscent of when people initially blamed other nationalities for Covid at the start of the year), perhaps we should be looking towards the actions of the Conservative government that have resulted in this. By announcing a lockdown a mere 8 hours before it was put in place, they forced this mass movement of people to occur in an extremely short period of time, thus increasing risk of infection amongst the crowd and to other parts of the country. Furthermore, had the 1 month lockdown occurred earlier; had London and the South-East been put into Tier 3 immediately; this rapid rise in infections would have been significantly mitigated in the first place.

Personally, I live in London and I will be remaining here - for much longer than I had planned now. The implementation of Tier 4 significantly impacted some of my plans and has been very upsetting for both myself and the people around me, but ultimately I understand why it is necessary now. We're all just trying to co-exist in this world in extremely challenging times and I think instead of turning on each other, we should really be questioning why this lousy government let the situation get so bad in the first place.

[owd git]

A telly program recently stated that 'the bubonic plague', in great concentration mutated to a 'numonic plague' able to transmit human to human. taking rats out of the equation to a greater , or lesser? extent.  just saying.  O. G.

[pwhole]

Much as I agree with your sentiments about the government, the fact remains that they are not infecting people - people are infecting people, and if they observe the guidelines properly, they won't infect people. If they'd announced Tier 4 with 48 hours notice, more people would have left, not organised their Christmases better. They didn't 'force' anyone to do anything at all, they did it themselves. I'm stuck by myself for Christmas, but I had already accepted that weeks ago, so why the surprise?

Every broadcast I see, every newsreader, every politician is desperate to avoid saying the one, inescapable fact that could help resolve this. Ed Davey prefaced every sentence he made in interviews yesterday with 'The Liberal Democrats have been saying for months'... No they haven't. Of if they have, I haven't heard them. Sadiq Khan blames Boris Johnson for it raining these days, but still seems to want to keep all hospitality businesses open and keep everyone 'safe'. Keir Starmer's pretty good with the 'Yeah but's...', but he seems pretty much invisible, frankly, along with that party he leads - what were they called again? The doctors seem to be the only ones who tell it straight now, thankfully without piano music tinkling along to remind you it's a 'sad' story.

[thehungrytroglobite]

A telly program recently stated that 'the bubonic plague', in great concentration mutated to a 'numonic plague' able to transmit human to human. taking rats out of the equation to a greater , or lesser? extent.  just saying.  O. G.

The bubonic plague did shift to pneumonic plague over the years, yes, although to varying extents. Quite a few studies have shown that the Y. Pestis strain was able to alternate between its bubonic and pneumonic forms; often resulting in it returning to the latter in the winter - which would explain the high number of deaths in the cold winter of 1625 despite the fleas going into hibernation.

Interestingly, transmission rates for pneumonic plague were often lower than the bubonic plague. This is because bubonic plague has a fatality rate of 65% whereas pneumonic plague has a fatality of 95% with a rapid onset, meaning that people often died before they had the chance to pass it on to anyone else.

DNA from 25 skeletons from 14th Century London has demonstrated that the plague strain which hit Madagascar in 2013 was almost identical to the "Black Death" of 1348. The majority of plague cases in modern day Madagascar are bubonic, and recent spatiotemporal analysis has found that this form of plague continues to be indiscriminate of urban and rural settings. All of this means that as far as historical epidemiology is concerned, a comparison of the so-called 'Black Death' and Covid-19 is limited in its usefulness.

However an analysis of the social impact of both epidemics shows a greater correlation than the nature of transmission. Attempts to quarantine London in a 17th century plague epidemic resulted in some residents being literally barred inside their houses by government officials blocking the front door - perhaps that is what Tier 5 will be like for us! Although as I have already explained, this method of quarantine actually resulted in more deaths. The rats loved it  . Death and dying rituals were also abandoned in the midst of the chaos - there was a greater increase in people 'dying alone', and a discarding of typical funeral ceremonies in place of rushed burials (particularly in urban centres).

Basically, Covid is totally different and smallpox would perhaps be a more helpful case study to compare it with.

[thehungrytroglobite]

Much as I agree with your sentiments about the government, the fact remains that they are not infecting people - people are infecting people, and if they observe the guidelines properly, they won't infect people. If they'd announced Tier 4 with 48 hours notice, more people would have left, not organised their Christmases better. They didn't 'force' anyone to do anything at all, they did it themselves. I'm stuck by myself for Christmas, but I had already accepted that weeks ago, so why the surprise?

Every broadcast I see, every newsreader, every politician is desperate to avoid saying the one, inescapable fact that could help resolve this. Ed Davey prefaced every sentence he made in interviews yesterday with 'The Liberal Democrats have been saying for months'... No they haven't. Of if they have, I haven't heard them. Sadiq Khan blames Boris Johnson for it raining these days, but still seems to want to keep all hospitality businesses open and keep everyone 'safe'. Keir Starmer's pretty good with the 'Yeah but's...', but he seems pretty much invisible, frankly, along with that party he leads - what were they called again? The doctors seem to be the only ones who tell it straight now, thankfully without piano music tinkling along to remind you it's a 'sad' story.

What exactly is the 'one inescapable fact that could help resolve this'?

I agree with what you're saying about the doctors giving the most reliable opinions and think that if we'd followed their advice from the start this whole Tier 4 mess wouldn't have happened.

I'm just saying I think we are often quick to judge people without knowing their circumstances. Some people are better equipped to manage being by themselves for long periods of time or not. Many people fleeing the city had plans to leave in the next week, but were forced to do it all at the same time yesterday evening because of the short notice given by the Government. Even 48 hours notice would have helped this crowd be more spread out. Furthermore, if people are leaving for reasons related to their health (which many of them are) then I would wholeheartedly support them doing that.

[pwhole]

What exactly is the 'one inescapable fact that could help resolve this'?

That the public have an equal responsibility to manage the pandemic as much as the government or the various local and regional authorities do. In many ways more so, as we have to be 'self-policing' to a large degree, as there aren't enough police. But the numbers speak for themselves and you don't need to install CCTV in every home to know that a large proportion of the population are either unable or are refusing to follow social distancing guidelines. I know it's difficult - I'm struggling with it myself. But until the government point this out, people will keep doing it. Track and trace and self-isolation support are critical in managing new outbreaks, but with asymptomatic cases being so high, the only way to deal with it is to stop getting so close to people, especially strangers.

I was on the empty top deck of a bus the other day, and as it went through town it picked up more passengers. The ones who came upstairs sat near me. Then more got on and sat near them. So I got up and moved four rows back so I was alone again. Then another guy got on and sat near me. It was obvious if we spread out, everyone could sit there comfortably, but they didn't. A group of eight guys got off a train with me yesterday and whipped off their masks in a second and marched down the platform in such a tight group I had to step out of the way to avoid their shouty exhalations as they were 'unusually close'. Four young guys were causing obvious tension (without masks on) in Go Outdoors on Friday, shouting and touching loads of clothes for no reason, and when I asked an assistant what to do he told me it wasn't his business as he gets 'less than £9 an hour'. So I had to leave without buying anything.

I know it's always 'they', but every day this sort of thing happens and it's kind of infuriating to watch when the situation is so serious. Chasing injecting smackheads off my doorstep and down the street isn't helping the general mood much either, but then they probably won't last the winter 

[Tribal Chestnut]

I struggle to criticise those making that journey.

I’ve been in fairly close contact with people from probably 25-30 different ‘bubbles’ over the past week at work, at least one of whom has subsequently suffered a positive diagnosis. My daughter, nieces and nephews have been in close contact with heaven knows how many different bubbles.

That’s is all safe, we are told. Yet for us all to meet on Christmas Day is now unsafe.

Something doesn’t quite sit right with that.

Chuck into the mix our PM’s father and his widely publicised rule breaking, the whole Cummings saga, that MP who was rumbled visiting his private club during the week, quarantine exemptions for VIPs, etc, etc, and I’d be a right c**k if I took to blaming the public for their actions last night.

[al]

I agree with pwhole, but we need to learn to do things safely. Vaccines, lockdowns and politicians all lead us into thinking that it will all go away, but, even if the vaccines work, they will take a very long time. What's needed right now is long term processes for covid safety, and proper policing. Oh and decent government that people can trust.

Reading this yesterday, thinking about Brexit, covid and who knows whatever next, we really do need to get somebody else to start running this country.

[Fjell]

The Guardian has published about 8745 articles on the unsuitability of Johnson to run a whelk stall. It’s almost as if they think people didn’t know what he’s like, and if they just keep repeating it to Guardian readers all will change. It’s a form of madness. I remember him from when he “ran” the Spectator (he didn’t actually read it as editor before publication, which led to the odd mishap).

I wasn’t the one who ran Corbyn against him as an alternate PM. Whatever you think of the portly one, he at least more or less persuaded a chunk of very truculent people to go along with lockdown because he patently didn’t relish it one little bit. Can you imagine the reaction of a great number of people to being enthusiastically locked up by Corbyn? Be thankful for small mercies. He did at least hire Sunak to do the most important job, who is pretty sharp.

[ChrisJC]

It is a pity that the Covid crisis is being seen as a political issue. I don't think it matters what leaning the party in power has.

The PM is simply making difficult decisions on the basis of scientific advice. He knows that whatever he does, it will please nobody. He has to attempt to strike a balance between avoiding total economic catastrophe, and losing control of the pandemic. He also knows that he will be surrounded by armchair experts who could solve this so easily if only they had the power. Whatever decision he takes will be roundly criticised by the press.

And of course everybody has the power of hindsight so they can all point out what they would have done 3 weeks ago. The opposition are being very tedious. All they seem to be able to offer is to just state the opposite.    As for the SNP 

I don't envy any of the government one bit - they didn't run for office with this on the manifesto.

It is totally unprecedented, people need to remember that. We have never done this before.

Boris did not invent this virus. Nor did he go around the country infecting people with it. There are millions of idiots doing that for him.

Chris.

[andrewmc]

It is a pity that the Covid crisis is being seen as a political issue. I don't think it matters what leaning the party in power has.

On the other hand, there are 4 nations with 4 different governments (Tory, Labour, SNP, NI power-sharing), and England has been consistently last in locking down on, and generally with the least restrictive lockdowns. So there is a political difference.

[droid]

The PM is simply making difficult decisions on the basis of scientific advice.

He's only making decisions when they are prised out of him. He's lazy, incompetent and highly disingenuous and any suggestion he's 'following the science' in any way willingly or in a timely manner is deluded.

[al]

The PM is simply making difficult decisions on the basis of scientific advice.

It shouldn't be down to one person to make these decisions, it shouldn't even be down to one party. At the very start, the government set out to treat the virus as the enemy, i.e. as though we were at war, and we should really have a wartime-style coalition dealing with this - instead we have a PM acting like a president, with a cabinet of yes men (see Hesseltine's statement of the previous week).

[Mrs Trellis]

The death toll in all four home nations has been roughly the same as it has over much of western Europe and the USA. Compare and contrast Taiwan which has had seven deaths from a population of 24 million.  Luckily for them they had experienced Sars whereas we were expecting a 'flu season which is less deadly.

China did a great job for them of banning flights from Wuhan to Beijing but allowing them to the west, especially London which was then the busiest air hub - thus effectively exporting Covid much as they export plastic gewgaws. Johnson's victory owed a great deal to the dislike of Corbyn's Trots and fellow travellers like Hatton and also to the dislike of the EU in the "red wall" places who believed they got nothing from their EU contributions save immigrants who hoover up those contributions.

The main problem in the west has always been the Covidiots.

[tony from suffolk]

The PM is simply making difficult decisions on the basis of scientific advice.

He's only making decisions when they are prised out of him. He's lazy, incompetent and highly disingenuous and any suggestion he's 'following the science' in any way willingly or in a timely manner is deluded.

Johnson and his gang are very selective over when they decide to follow scientific advice. Witness allowing the Cheltenham races to go ahead, despite strong pleas from the medical experts; the same story with the latest debacle over the Christmas break decision. People keep telling me he's "Doing his best". Well, if that's his best I'd hate to see his worst! He's inept and incompetent, and an embarrassment to the UK.

With nothing better to do on a Sunday morning, I like to watch The Week in Parliament and Johnson's performance at PM's Question time is incredibly awful. All he can do, apart from exhibiting his usual bumbling, shambling persona, is mock and deflect. I think, given even The Daily Fail's got its knives out for him, he's going to be toast very soon.

[andrewmc]

I can only assume they ignore the scientific advice until the screaming from the offices of SAGE becomes too loud to bear.

[AR]

This article (https://www.theregister.com/2020/12/21/thinktank_report/) from El Reg yesterday covering a thinktank's critique of the government's use of science is worth reading. All I will say is that if Boris is "following the science", then he needs to stop playing at being a leader, and put the scientists in the driving seat...

[Fjell]

“Following the science” would have entailed 90% of the population being told never to leave their house for 1-2 years on pain of summary execution. It would clearly work. They actually did this in Spain pretty much for a while.

So, given that the population were highly unlikely to go along with this, it comes down to how many have to die so you can go out to the shops. 10,000?, 100,000? Anyone want to take a punt on “acceptable losses”?

In a similar vein, it is already clear that “track and trace” has failed in every Western democracy. People don’t comply because they don’t have to. The police won’t enforce any lockdown because they know they will get slapped down.

Or you can live in China, where they do these things.

[Mrs Trellis]

I don't understand why track and trace failed so many times. Everyone knows where Mickey Mouse and Snow White live.

[pwhole]

Boris Johnson is just an awful caricature of the whole situation and a perfect demonstration to the world of our fundamental problem. Much of this country's infrastructure and social setups are actually almost broken - we just can't admit it as a country - yet. I'm supposed to qualify for a free flu vaccine this year. Total silence from my GP. Where is it? The TV ads tell me to talk to my pharmacist first, then my GP. Is that because my GP doesn't know I exist? My dentist hasn't been in touch for over a year about my twice-annual check-up. I appreciate they're busy, but - maybe an email to their customer list might be possible? Laughable.

We had the virus almost under control in August and then totally lost the plot over the need to be seen eating in restaurants and going on holiday. Now we're doing it again over 'Christmas' - which is an imaginary construct if ever there were one. Considering how much money is in this country it's a national embarrassment that we can't get it together to sort this out. Our general state of unfitness and poor health doesn't help either. Brexit is another national embarrassment - totally avoidable and totally stupid, and now kicking in at the worst possible time. All we have to do to fix this is not do it...

This is what happens when, amongst other things, you prioritise 'comfortable' middle-aged middle-class values over common sense, and maximise pension returns and house values instead of investing in the future of the country. And now we're sacrificing the future of the next generation to further protect the savings of the last two generations, even though they won't be around long enough to spend it. If I was 25 I would probably just be getting on with my life, as they are no doubt trying to do. And having sex with foreigners, ideally. Each street block of the City of London holds about a billion pounds-worth of property, which is now empty and unnecessary office-space. Flog it off for housing, now.

We're supposed to be building moon bases, eradicating poverty and drastically improving the lives of everyone worldwide so we can colonise everywhere, but we're actually obsessed with Strictly Come Dancing and Bake Off. The most painful bit of writing this for me is the 'we' bit - but I'm altruistic - and technically catholic, so I'm used to not getting what I want

[Laurie]

It's not just the politics.
Please remember those tens of thousands who've lost someone dear.
This was my  Christmas card this year.....

I couldn't bring myself to produce my usual Land Rover related cards this year. I'll be celebrating (that's not really the word) Christmas apart from my lovely wife. Helena was taken from me on April the fifth by that horrible virus from the east. We were forced apart by the thing three weeks before that day and I was prevented from being anywhere near her from that day on. I was given no chance to say "Goodbye" or to be with her at the end. In fact I was never told how seriously ill she was.
Helena had taken a fall at home in February and broken her pelvis. After a brief stay in hospital she'd been removed to the local Intermediate Care Unit conveniently close to home, in Lewes. By mid-March the pandemic loomed and my daily visits came to a halt. I was reduced to regular phone calls to enquire of her condition. On the last day of March I contracted the virus and was removed to the Princess Royal Hospital in Haywards Heath where I remained for the next three weeks. Mine was a reasonably light illness and I was able to continue my frequent phone calls to the Lewes Unit to enquire about Helena. On April the Second they told me that Helena also had also contracted the virus. "Never mind, she'll be fine" I was told, "She'll be home by the time you're recovered." I believed it, every time I phoned it was the same story, "No problems, she's doing fine, nothing to worry about."
On the morning of the fifth of April I overheard a voice on the nearby Ward Sister's mobile phone. Helena had slipped away in the early hours. My wife and my love and my friend of forty years was gone. No chance to see her, no chance to hold her, no chance to even say goodbye. Just gone.
Three weeks later, in the midst of Lockdown, an ambulance returned me to an unbelievably empty home.

I sincerely wish you the happiest of Christmases that the current clime will allow and my very best wishes for a better coming year.
Lord knows, we all need it.
I'm sorry if you had to read this twice to make any sense of it but nothing I do seems to make much sense any more.
Merry Christmas....


I had intended to spend Christmas and the new year with a few friends at the MNRS as my wife and I have done for the last 25+ years.
I internded to take my wife's ashes down for one last visit.....

[tony from suffolk]

“Following the science” would have entailed 90% of the population being told never to leave their house for 1-2 years on pain of summary execution. It would clearly work. They actually did this in Spain pretty much for a while.

So, given that the population were highly unlikely to go along with this, it comes down to how many have to die so you can go out to the shops. 10,000?, 100,000? Anyone want to take a punt on “acceptable losses”?

In a similar vein, it is already clear that “track and trace” has failed in every Western democracy. People don’t comply because they don’t have to. The police won’t enforce any lockdown because they know they will get slapped down.

Or you can live in China, where they do these things.

A touch of reductio ad absurdum there. We could be New Zealand, or South Korea. The society we've now evolved to worships perceived freedom, but of course that's always at the expense of others.

Getting people to comply has been made a damn sight more difficult by Johnson allowing his henchman to get away with a flagrant breach of covid regulations, giving the opportunity for the irresponsible to think that gives them carte blanche to act in the same way.

[paul]

Global Moderator Comment

Brexit-related posts split to new Topic https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=27340.0

[Duck ditch]

Thank you Laurie for your heartfelt Christmas card post.  All the best for the coming year.  It must be hard hearing the covid word and argument on a daily basis.

[Laurie]

There's something about the caving fraternity that is unique.
I could not wish for a more wonderful group of friends as I have in the Members of the MNRC.
Also I'm sure they are representative of all caving clubs throughout the country.
Thankyou one and all.

[pwhole]

Best wishes from me too, though we've never met - you've had a tougher year than most of us, and your company is appreciated!

Happy Christmas 

[droid]

And the same from me, Laurie.

[Roger W]

And me.

[Duck ditch]

I couldn’t agree with you more Laurie about the uniqueness of the caving community.
I obviously have differences of opinion to some people on this site.  However the love of caving binds us all.
There is nothing better to clear your mind of all other thoughts and problems than to enter a cave and traverse it in the best possible style your team can achieve..  working together, Immersing yourself in the environment of the cave. 

I walk mostly these days and your mind can wander back to the problems you face from time to time.  It never does in caves, even when you are waiting for your turn to descend pitch.

I love reading caving stories.  You can’t get enough of those.  I’m sorry I can’t contribute to that core part of this site.

I think that’s why the friendships formed underground are so strong.

[droid]

You could say the same about the Club motorcycling scene.

[pwhole]

Oh what lovely people. I seem to remember skiers brought it back from their last winter holidays. Now this lot are on the run. So will they be allowed back in? Can we get their names and addresses? Perhaps a public flogging on The One Show might be appropriate?

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55465079

More than 200 British skiers fled a coronavirus quarantine in the popular Swiss resort of Verbier on Saturday night, reports say.

A spokesman in Valais canton said 420 British guests had booked into Verbier accommodation before Christmas and now only about a dozen were left.

Switzerland imposed a 10-day quarantine backdated to 14 December because of the new virus strain spreading in the UK.

The country also stopped flights from the UK and South Africa on 20 December.

Some Swiss hoteliers only discovered the guests had vanished when room service trays were left untouched outside doors, Swiss media reported. Others were called by British tourists demanding their money back once they had safely crossed into France, the BBC's Imogen Foulkes reports from Geneva.

[pwhole]

Meanwhile - from the almost empty space that occupies Michael O'Leary's head - apart from the tiny corner dedicated to shafting everyone - 'Jab And Go!':

https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en

Needless to say most of the happy young people on the ad currently saturating Sky News won't even have been vaccinated by the time their 'summer holiday' comes around. That's assuming any of the countries featured in the ad will let UK visitors enter by then. Anyway, it's not going down too well it seems - anywhere.

[AR]

Further idiocy abroad...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-55471235

[pwhole]

Funnily enough the media, especially the BBC, seemed to be doing their best to avoid mentioning this skiing story other than as a 'News in Brief', especially given the 'ambiguities' about how they got there, where they've gone to, how they're getting home and who will meet them when they do. I wonder why, given it's of huge importance in a pandemic? Could it possibly because some of their friends and colleagues are there? Perhaps their sons and daughters are currently beach-partying in Sydney?

We're not doing very well at promoting the 'New Way' of post-Brexit Britain around the world, are we?