Blummin facebook....

[Pegasus]

Hmm, OK so I have a facebook account and yes it's good for keeping in touch with friends and family abroad, and yes there's a UKC facebook page -  solely there to encourage folks to the forum itself, however fb's changing for the worse IMO.

Recently I've tried to turn off notifications for certain groups - am ignored, notifications keep on coming (and yes I'm doing it properly).

I see more and more 'suggested for you' posts and adverts etc, fewer posts from 'friends' - now maybe folks are posting less because there's just less to say during lockdown, even so it's not so interesting...

When I used to post on the UKC FB page a couple of years ago, the post would reach many 100's of people who had 'liked' the page, often in the 1000's - these days it's barely 10-20% of those who have liked the page.  Obviously FB would like UKC to PAY for our post to be shared. I'd rather put any money back into caving, not further line the pockets of the billionaire owners.

...and finally, it's with dismay I see some caving organisations posting their news on facebook but not the forum - some even have boards on UKC which are free to use but rarely do 

(Note if your organisation would like a board and will make use of it, please contact us and we'll get it sorted)

The forum is really busy these days, 100's of cavers visit every day and lots of posts are made and read (thank you to you all  ), so here's a request to those organisations - please consider using UKC to engage and communicate with fellow cavers - UKC is the Cavers' forum, run by cavers for cavers.  If you only post on FB, you will likely reach 10-20% of the cavers who have liked your page (judging by what UKC experience on there) and you will be supporting a social media platform that has it's issues - anti vaccination false news is being spread on there and Australia are having their problems to name just a couple.

UKC - run by cavers, for cavers (and miners  ) on a not for profit basis.

Cheers, Pegasus 

[royfellows]

I think its time for people to give facebook a miss, I wont do it, full stop.

[Alex]

Yeh, I normally use it to jsut share my caving photos and videos around and argue about Brexit, but I do all that here lol.

[sinker]

I think its time for people to give facebook a miss, I wont do it, full stop.

Agree, 100%. Stay away from it; its a vile cess pit that will rot your soul.

[Down and beyond]

I don’t personally use face book does not interest me the slightest any of that rubbish !

[royfellows]

I think its time for people to give facebook a miss, I wont do it, full stop.

Agree, 100%. Stay away from it; its a vile cess pit that will rot your soul.

Yes Phil, you dont have to go on facebook to get insulted, you can get that here
 

[mikem]

Forums generally are being used less & less, yahoo have recently shut down their groups, but then the younger generation have no interest of being on Facebook (with their parents) - recent additions are even more ephemeral.

[Down and beyond]

See I am the odd person I should of been working down a mine I am only 28 and hate all unsociable media and genuinely love history more than tv phones and technology etc , after leaving school all my friends are much older and I choose to keep it this way because not many young people am have the same interests I do  unless it’s making videos and showing places off ?

[Pitlamp]

I think its time for people to give facebook a miss, I wont do it, full stop.

Agree, 100%. Stay away from it; its a vile cess pit that will rot your soul.

I seem to have found myself agreeing with you a lot today Sinker!
Glad it's not just me who thinks Facebook is quite sinister. It has lots of potential but it's also rather Orwellian.

Bottom line is, if folk only post caving news on Facebook, a great many cavers will not be reached. A great deal of knowledge and experience will not be tapped into. This forum is excellent - and accessible to all. I'm pleased that Pegasus has raised this issue.

[mrodoc]

Perhaps it is my age but everybody gets too worked about these things. They are free for God's Sake (you can argue that they are stealing your data but basically you don't pay for it). It's the same as the forum i.e. a lot of rubbish gets posted but it can be a useful communication tool.  I use it and it's fun. If it went something would replace it. Get over it. I still have stamps and envelopes and a land line if everything else went !

[cavemanmike]

Never used it and have no intention of using.
Got a full life thank you

[Pitlamp]

Perhaps it is my age but everybody gets too worked about these things. They are free for God's Sake (you can argue that they are stealing your data but basically you don't pay for it). It's the same as the forum i.e. a lot of rubbish gets posted but it can be a useful communication tool.  I use it and it's fun. If it went something would replace it. Get over it. I still have stamps and envelopes and a land line if everything else went !

I think you may have missed the point mrodoc.

Many people have varied but legitimate reasons for steering clear of the likes of Facebook. If people try to communicate with the caving community at large via a system that many don't use, it's arguably worse than useless.

[Pitlamp]

. . . and, separately, here's an example of why many people find Facebook sinister:

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/facebook-news-goes-dark-australia-003643434-111744312.html

Hell, I wish we had more caving to talk about!

[mikem]

& they don't all look at this forum, you have to be conversant with multiple media nowadays.

[PeteHall]

One thing that Facebook does that the forum doesn't is private members groups, which can be easily created and self-administered. The creator is at liberty to appoint administrators and admit or remove members at their leisure, as well as choose their preferred privacy settings.

These are genuinely useful things for some purposes and not so easy on here.

I do find it bizarre though that an organisation like the CSCC for example refuses to publish news or notices on here under their own name. Surely such an organisation should embrace all available options to get its messages out...

[mrodoc]

I think you made my point for me John in there are too many ways to communicate nowadays. We had a trip to Thailand and we were split between two sites for accommodation about a kilometer apart. It took me most of the trip to realize that communications were being conducted via Facebook rather than text or email: nobody bothered to tell us. I have found messages to me on Facebook sent months before by people who have my email. It's like sending pigeons when we have a postal service.

[darren]

If you find Facebook is a vile place full of hideous people you are telling us more about yourself and your friends than is really necessary.

Most people I know only interact with friends and groups they've elected to join. I always thought this was the default option.

All my friends and members of the group's I'm in are smashing chaps (even the ladies) and I therefore have a lovely time.

I find some of the people on this forum to be far more bullying, opinionated and rude than anyone I chose to interact with on Facebook.

Then again I'm quite a delicate flower.

Just saying, I know I don't have to visit this forum or Facebook.

[pwhole]

Forums can have private groups too, it's just more that most choose not to implement them. We all know what goes on in VIP lounges 

[Pitlamp]

I think you made my point for me John in there are too many ways to communicate nowadays. We had a trip to Thailand and we were split between two sites for accommodation about a kilometer apart. It took me most of the trip to realize that communications were being conducted via Facebook rather than text or email: nobody bothered to tell us. I have found messages to me on Facebook sent months before by people who have my email. It's like sending pigeons when we have a postal service.

Fully agree. Paradoxically, the more channels spring up (which ought to make communication easier) the less reliably we're able to communicate with each other because it becomes harder and harder to ensure you're on top of them all. Anyway, life's too short to spend so much of it pressing buttons.

What's needed is a single internet source, accessible to all.

We're reading it, right now. I bet Pegasus would agree . . .

[Pitlamp]

Forums can have private groups too, it's just more that most choose not to implement them. We all know what goes on in VIP lounges 

Er, do we?   

[crickleymal]

I use Facebook a lot. But my posts only go to friends not to Facebook in general. I see little spam and only occasionally get involved in arguments with brexiteers when my friends posts get flagged up. On the whole I find it useful.

[T pot 2]

If it weren't so difficult, time consuming to post photos on here it would be a dream.

[Brains]

We use FB for our photos etc and to keep touch with family and friends,,, I also use it to blow off steam with memes and jokes that are funny  or interesting to me - if peeps dont like what I do, tough! The annoying people get blocked... For specific interest groups like I will use specific portals. I do find FB good for PM groups to organise trips as most of the people I cave with are geographically remote and not linked by a club

[ttxela2]

Crikey, I know a lot of folk don't like Facebook but I use it without any issues. I'm in touch with a lot of folk on there with shared interests around the world it's a source of a lot of useful information.

That's not to say Forums aren't great too, I just don't have the negative experience others have 

[Pegasus]

Bottom line is, if folk only post caving news on Facebook, a great many cavers will not be reached. A great deal of knowledge and experience will not be tapped into.

Thanks Pitlamp - that's my point.  IMO it makes no sense that caving organisations post on facebook but disregard the forum - why just facebook, not all cavers are on there?  Not every caver who has 'liked' a page will receive the notification unless the organisation pays.  My point isn't that organisations should post only on UKC, it is to use multiple social media platforms to communicate as effectively as possible with cavers.

I do find it bizarre though that an organisation like the CSCC for example refuses to publish news or notices on here under their own name. Surely such an organisation should embrace all available options to get its messages out...

Yup.

If you find Facebook is a vile place full of hideous people you are telling us more about yourself and your friends than is really necessary.

Most people I know only interact with friends and groups they've elected to join. I always thought this was the default option.

All my friends and members of the group's I'm in are smashing chaps (even the ladies) and I therefore have a lovely time.

I find some of the people on this forum to be far more bullying, opinionated and rude than anyone I chose to interact with on Facebook.

Then again I'm quite a delicate flower.

Just saying, I know I don't have to visit this forum or Facebook.

Please report any bullying or rudeness that you find offensive, there is a moderation team to deal with such problems.

Like you my own personal facebook timeline is fine (if as I said in my original post rather too full or 'suggested for you' posts and adverts), however I am uncomfortable in the knowledge that sinister stuff does go on including bullying. I too am a delicate flower and being unfriended by someone recently on FB was incredible hurtful, ironically was all about being bullied off a livery yard 

What's needed is a single internet source, accessible to all.

We're reading it, right now. I bet Pegasus would agree . . .

Ha, I'd love to however recognise little 'ol UKC is never going to see off FB - however 100's of cavers visit UKC every day and it is a great way for cavers and caving organisations to communicate - for free 

If it weren't so difficult, time consuming to post photos on here it would be a dream.

We've worked hard recently to improve this.  If I can do it, believe me anyone can! 

Here's how to do it, give the 'attachment' option a go - or if anyone fancies donating a few billion I'm sure Q could improve the system 

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=24318.0

[Pitlamp]

Hey - even I find it easy now to post photos on here.

If I can do it, anyone can!

[Pegasus]

Yup, if Pitlamp & I can post photos - absolutely anyone can 

[Pitlamp]

 

[pwhole]

The facebook news issue is of huge concern though, especially to news providers and journalists who are steadily being phased out by the continual drip-drip of social media - and the inevitable lack of truth that can become endemic. This feature on C4 News tonight was a good summary - I guess you could accuse them of 'bias' being a news programme presented by journalists, but at least they wrote it themselves. There's the full feature available, but this interview with Shoshana Zuboff was amazing - it's rare that Krisnan Guru-Murthy is lost for words:

https://www.channel4.com/news/shoshana-zuboff-australia-facebook-news-ban-wake-up-call-for-governments-over-tech-giants-control

https://www.channel4.com/news/facebook-faces-international-criticism-after-tech-giant-blocks-users-from-seeing-news-in-australia

[mikem]

That is the same with all industries, just most of them don't have the same impact if they withdraw their services

[pwhole]

I must admit I'm still baffled by the concept that if facebook pull news feeds from their system that their users will then have 'no news'. I mean, I just posted links from Channel 4 news, which I also watched on TV. I'll watch Newsnight later, and no doubt read through a couple of newspaper websites too. It's not difficult, unless you truly believe that facebook is the internet, of course.

[darren]

Everyone complians Facebook is using other people's  news reports without paying.

Facebook stops using other people's news reports.

World goes wild.

No pleasing some people.

[Ed]

Also worth beating in mind one of the big ones complaining about Facebook in Australia is.....

Newscorp

[crickleymal]

I'm a tad confused about the Australia thing too. I never get my news from Facebook, Google news yes, the BBC and channel 4 and occasionally Al Jazeera.

[RichardB1983]

When I used to post on the UKC FB page a couple of years ago, the post would reach many 100's of people who had 'liked' the page, often in the 1000's - these days it's barely 10-20% of those who have liked the page.  Obviously FB would like UKC to PAY for our post to be shared. I'd rather put any money back into caving, not further line the pockets of the billionaire owners.

I did hear a few years back that Facebook were going to gradually reduce "organic reach" - the number of people who were going to get Facebook Page content appearing in their feeds, recommendations, search results etc. without you having to pay Facebook - potentially until it was functionally zero - and that eventually the only way someone could end up seeing your content was either through visiting your page directly or you paying Facebook to advertise. Your posts might not even show up in search results unless you pay to "Boost" them. That was a few years ago, and not sure if that's still the long term plan, but I wouldn't be surprised to find non-paid reach falling in future.

Whilst the Facebook advertising rates might well be reasonable for a small business hoping to sell products or services, it's far from clear this non-profit community groups could justify doing the same.

[RichardB1983]

I'm a tad confused about the Australia thing too. I never get my news from Facebook, Google news yes, the BBC and channel 4 and occasionally Al Jazeera.

From what I understand, if you went and visited the main Facebook page of any Australian news organisation, ABC news Australia, Sydney Morning Herald etc, then there was nothing there at all: no posts, no photos, no stories, no links etc. It was like the page didn't exist. You can verify this by going and visiting the pages now - it's still the same. Obviously some people were getting their news content by subscribing to these news organisations' own Facebook posts and posts appearing onto their feed - or by visiting their Facebook pages - and that has been turned off completely.

For Australians viewing Facebook - they cannot view international news organisation pages, BBC, American ones etc.

So you can't share their posts, and, according to Twitter users, you can't create a post which contains a link to a news organisation's website either.

[Dickie]

I only use Facebook to contact the 20 or so people who I am "friends" with. I wouldn't dream of using it to read the news when you can go directly to news companies' websites. Who does that?
It's disgusting that FB has compromised a load of worthwhile sites here in Australia that could genuinely put lives at risk. Anti-vaxxer FB pages are still active - go figure!

[oldfart]

Bin Faecbook.

[mikem]

It'll bin itself eventually. Until then it's a useful platform to keep in touch with people.

[kay]

One thing that Facebook does that the forum doesn't is private members groups, which can be easily created and self-administered. The creator is at liberty to appoint administrators and admit or remove members at their leisure, as well as choose their preferred privacy settings.

I’m a member of 5 private botany groups on FB which give me access to the most highly regarded botanists in different plant groups. It’s given me learning opportunities better than I’ve had access to in the last 50 years. It might be possible to replicate this on an Internet forum, but at the moment, Facebook is where they are. I won’t be leaving it soon.

Yes, Facebook has problems, and the latest version hasn’t improved it, but a lot of the criticisms people make (not on this thread) are more to do with how they use it, not with Facebook itself

[Pitlamp]

Reading the information in the above posts, it seems that FB is good for private communications but not very effective for public ones. This is really what I was trying to say earlier in this topic.

[mikem]

It's good for drawing people's attention to them. The problem in Australia is that they've also blocked government covid news.

[2xw]

I love Facebook. Let's me communicate with people I find it difficult to stay in touch with. And I run an arachnology group that has a far, far wider general reach than the forum (which we also have). As others have noted it also gives folk access to actual experts on a more personable level.
Imo the BCA should be paying Facebook for advertising if it wants to recruit more cavers generally, as should any club who's objectives are the same. It's just how the world is now. And of course they want people to pay - it's a business.

Then again, Facebook is for old people - have you considered getting a UKC tiktok? 

[pwhole]

I've heard that Friends Reunited is quite good for reuniting with your friends 

But seriously, I think a lot of this would be resolved by introducing payments - much of the bullshit around social media is the contradictions and moral ambiguities around the funding stream. To keep it 'free' to users means screwing over a shitload of non-users (we're always the last to know, even when we're involved in the news) and over-reliance on advertising, much of which simply doesn't work - as in, you don't actually buy the product or service that they want you to buy. Paying for access would make it so much clearer who gets what and why. And 90% of their users would disappear overnight, making it much easier to communicate effectively. Facebook is like hula-hoops, the Bay City Rollers, 'Aceeed' and Downton Abbey - it's a current trend, sold by trendmongers, and you gets what you pays for, in every sense.
Anyway, as it's Friday, here's a quote from 'The Adventures of Greggary Peccary', by Frank Zappa. Well worth a listen but I'll not post the link for fear of causing a rage of Hunchmen - and Hunchwomen 
(but play the 2012 remaster)

And with that, GREGGERY turned and strode nonchalantly into his dinky little office with the desk and the catalog and the very hip water pipe, and proceeded, with a vigor and determination known only to piglets of a similarly diminutive proportion, to single-handedly invent THE CALENDAR!

With his eyes rolled heaven-ward, and his little shiny pig-hoofs on the desk, GREGGERY ponders the question of ETERNITY (and fractional divisions thereof), as mysterious ANGELIC VOICES sing to him from a great distance, providing the necessary clues for the construction of this thrilling new TREND!

Angelic Voices:

SUNDAY

Greggery:

Sunday?
WOW!
SUNDAY, SATURDAY . . . TUESDAY THROUGH
'MONDAY—MONDAY'!
SUNDAY, SATURDAY

Narrator:

And thus THE CALENDAR, in all of its colorful disguises was presented to the bored & miserable people everywhere!

GREGGERY issued a memo on it, whereupon the entire contents of the Steno Pool identified with it STRENUOUSLY, and WORSHIPPED IT as a WAY OF LIFE, and took their little pills by it, and went back 'n forth from work by it, and paid their rent by it, and before long they were even having BIRTHDAY PARTIES IN THE OFFICE by it, because NOW, AT LAST, GREGGERY PECCARY's exciting new invention had made it possible for everyone to find out HOW OLD THEY WERE!

[Pegasus]

Imo the BCA should be paying Facebook for advertising if it wants to recruit more cavers generally, as should any club who's objectives are the same. It's just how the world is now. And of course they want people to pay - it's a business.

Then again, Facebook is for old people - have you considered getting a UKC tiktok? 

When I was BCA P&I I suggested paying for adverts on facebook.  Not to attract more cavers, I don't think that would work, however it would help BCA communicate and engage with cavers.  BCA are however welcome to use UKC for free, UKC is not a business and is not run for profit.

Tiktok?  Yes maybe we should, however we don't have the time, simple as that.

[2xw]

"BCA are however welcome to use UKC for free"

Whilst I love ripping on the BCA as much as anyone, I tried to get a "BCA Conservation" account on UKC (which I did email about last year) when I took up the post, which failed, and I've just tried again, which again failed as I haven't been able to verify the account. So it's not an intentional snubbing, more that we haven't actually been able to sign up. I think Rostam might be having similar issues.

[Pegasus]

"BCA are however welcome to use UKC for free"

Whilst I love ripping on the BCA as much as anyone, I tried to get a "BCA Conservation" account on UKC (which I did email about last year) when I took up the post, which failed, and I've just tried again, which again failed as I haven't been able to verify the account. So it's not an intentional snubbing, more that we haven't actually been able to sign up. I think Rostam might be having similar issues.

Feels like you're ripping UKC at the moment.  We don't have the billions FB does, it's me, Tim and a great, voluntary moderation team.  You know me as does Rostam - if you are having problems why not PM me, or even give me a call (you have my number) and you know I will try hard to solve any issues.

Edit - just found the account in 'awaiting activation' file and have activated it - try now.

Cheers, Jane

[aricooperdavis]

Sorry that we haven't got the autoposting from the BCA website to the forum working yet - I've not intentionally prioritised Facebook, it just has an API to work with which makes automated posting easy in a way that SMF doesn't (out of the box, at least). I'm working on it, just also juggling a million and 1 other BCA jobs at the same time!

[Ian Ball]

Your efforts are noticeable and appreciated ACD.

[nearlywhite]

As Will says, I've been having trouble actually getting a second activated account for P&I. I raised the autoposting issue with Ari when I realised but we have both been somewhat busy of late.

Auto posting is the way forward and uses multiple social mediums I don't keep track of. The real issue is a lack of volunteer support in P&I. If anyone fancies giving me a hand and we have a load of good tools and data to bring people together.

I can even give you decent data on the reach of various caving news sources, but I ought to go back to the grindstone.