The underground route out of lockdown

[David Rose]

The way I'm hearing Boris Johnson's statement today is that it should be legally possible for people to go caving outside their home areas in groups of up to six from 12 April.

Does everyone agree?

[JoshW]

Agreed!

[PeteHall]

That's the way I read it, but I suppose we'd best wait until the legislation is formalised.

After all, the legislation and guidance have not been particularly closely aligned so far, so why should we expect that to change now...

[ZombieCake]

Makes sense, but a note of caution should be taken in that the current government has a habit of rapid u-turns with very little notice. Hopefully there'll be some stability at last.

[mikem]

Organised outdoor sports are timetabled for 29 March.

[JoshW]

Organised outdoor sports are timetabled for 29 March.

If this is like last time, I thought there was a chunk of requirements to be considered 'organised'.

[mikem]

Indeed & huts are still limited into May, or possibly June. Travel is also restricted until the April date.

[Ed]

Not really

The stay at home rule will end but people should stay local as much as possible

[Alex]

I thought the stay at home order ended on 29th of March or have they moved it already ?

Just checked the BBC it's then the stay at home order ends and "Formally organised outdoor sports can also restart" so I read that as we can go caving again, provided we plan it as a club meet, to make it formal, not read the rules in detail yet though.

The stay local is only advisory then. It's alright for those of you who who live in the caving areas, who saying you should continue to stay local and not go caving until May, June, 2030, whenever, but you don't get affected, so can quite happily tell other people not to cave, but carry on yourself. But, you know what that is completely unfair on the rest of us who don't have the good fortune to live next to the caves. Please stop with the peer pressure, as how can driving an hour make any bloody difference, for god sake we will be more isolated once we are in the caves then when we are at home most of the time.

Yes I accept one or two may have a crash on the way (hopefully not) but that's like one or two extra beds tops, so it really don't make a difference. So please enough already, as over a quarter of the pop has been vaccinated, it will be at what 35 - 40% by then, so all the people who are really getting ill from it should be protected, so don't tell me caving is going to kill granny, because it's not (she's already dead anyway, years ago).

Our sport will have no effect on the overall numbers whether we go caving or not anyway.

Finally looking at the rules why cannot caving huts begin to open on the April date, though, yes with restrictions, sounds like you can camp in a field though as that counts as self contained? They managed it with similar restrictions last time?

[JoshW]

Indeed & huts are still limited into May, or possibly June. Travel is also restricted until the April date.

I thought I saw something about self catered accommodation being 12 April on the bbc website

[PeteHall]

I thought the stay at home order ended on 29th of March or have they moved it already ?

Does this help?

As part of step one, there will be further limited changes from 29 March, the week in which most schools will break up for Easter. Outdoor gatherings of either 6 people or 2 households will be allowed, providing greater flexibility for families to see each other. This includes in private gardens.

Outdoor sports facilities, such as tennis and basketball courts, will be allowed to reopen, and people can take part in formally organised outdoor sports.

At this point, the Stay at Home order will end, although many lockdown restrictions will remain.

For example, you should continue to work from home where possible, and overseas travel remains banned, aside for a small number of reasons.

Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prime-minister-sets-out-roadmap-to-cautiously-ease-lockdown-restrictions

[PeteHall]

I thought I saw something about self catered accommodation being 12 April on the bbc website

Same source as above:

Step 2, no earlier than 12 April:

Non-essential retail, personal care premises, such as hairdressers and nail salons, and public buildings, such as libraries and community centres, will reopen.
Most outdoor attractions and settings, including zoos, and theme parks, will also reopen although wider social contact rules will apply in these settings to prevent indoor mixing between different households. Drive-in cinemas and drive-in performances will also be permitted.
Indoor leisure facilities, such as gyms and swimming pools, will also reopen - but only for use by people on their own or with their household.
Hospitality venues can serve people outdoors only. There will be no need for customers to order a substantial meal with alcohol, and no curfew - although customers must order, eat and drink while seated.
Self-contained accommodation, such as holiday lets, where indoor facilities are not shared with other households, can also reopen.
Funerals can continue with up to 30 people, and the numbers able to attend weddings, receptions and commemorative events such as wakes will rise to 15 (from 6).

[Jenny P]

Caving club huts come under the heading of "Hostels" according to the rules.  The requirements for re-opening these may not be the same as what is generally called "self-catering accommodation", where you might expect the accommodation to be booked by a family or perhaps a "bubble group".  Hostels have their own set of rules because they may be used by a number of people who have no connection to each other - think of Youth Hostels.

The regulations are extremely complicated and cover many pages but BCA should be able to give some clear guidance in the not too distant future.  Better to get it absolutely correct than rush out with advice which may turn out to be iffy.

[PeteHall]

Caving club huts come under the heading of "Hostels" according to the rules.  The requirements for re-opening these may not be the same as what is generally called "self-catering accommodation"

Good point Jenny. Hostels are in step 3, but you need to go to the full document to find this:

Step 3: At least 5 weeks after step 2, no earlier than 17th May
120. In Step 3, all but the most high-risk sectors will be able to reopen. In all sectors,
COVID-Secure guidance will remain in place and premises must not cater for groups
larger than the legal limits. Sectors which will reopen include:
a. Indoor hospitality, with no requirement for a substantial meal to be served
alongside alcoholic drinks, and no curfew. The requirement to order, eat and drink
while seated (‘table service’) will remain;
b. Remaining outdoor entertainment, such as outdoor theatres and cinemas;
c. Indoor entertainment, such as museums, cinemas and children’s play areas;
d. Remaining accommodation, such as hotels, hostels and B&Bs;
e. Adult indoor group sports and exercise classes; and
f. Some large events, including conferences, theatre and concert
performances and sports events.

Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/963491/COVID-19_Response_-_Spring_2021.pdf

Either way, no saying they won't change their minds before then, or write something else into the legislation, so best not get too carried away...

[Cap'n Chris]

...it should be legally possible for people to go caving outside their home areas in groups of up to six from 12 April.

It's been possible all along; the legality seems to be the debating point, though. Restrictions v guidelines v law.

[pwhole]

It's further complicated (or simplified) by the 'hostel' aspect of the building not being that relevant for many club members. I just need to use the 'club hut' to get changed, collect and return ropes etc. and generally go caving. I rarely need to stay over, as I just about live close enough (as do many other members), and my sole interaction with 'shared' facilities is usually the kettle and the fridge to make a cup of tea. It's often that there's only three or four of us in the entire building, and it's huge for four. So I would be reasonably confident that we could re-open that aspect of the place sooner, and just restrict staying-over, fine dining and total piss-ups until later in the year. If it's safe enough for a few people to go caving, then it should be equally so to use the facilities. We are right in the middle of the village though, so that aspect has to be considered too.

[Ed]

Bear in mind in certain parts on North Yorkshire covid administration to hospital figures are still going up

There is also the issue of the image of the sport and the good will of locals /land owners

If everyone suddenly thinks its OK to drive here there and everywhere to go caving there very well are likely to be negative impacts

[Down and beyond]

When I have read it all I also thought March the 29th , does anyone know if we shall be in tiers again so for example if I am tier 2 I could only travel to a tier 2 to go caving ?

[mikem]

There's no mention of tiers, but still plenty of time for them to be added if felt necessary. This is also just the schedule for England - I haven't seen what Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland are planning.

[tobyk]

Bear in mind in certain parts on North Yorkshire covid administration to hospital figures are still going up

I work at a West Yorkshire hospital, which covers a large part of North Yorkshire including some of the caving areas. Our covid cases are definitely going down.

[PeteHall]

There is also the issue of the image of the sport and the good will of locals /land owners

If everyone suddenly thinks its OK to drive here there and everywhere to go caving there very well are likely to be negative impacts

Compared to the number of people out walking and cycling, I very much doubt cavers will have any impact on visitor numbers or public perception. But obviously don't be a dick and probably avoid honey pot sites at peak times (unless you want to blend into the crowds).

[Down and beyond]

Normality had to start somewhere that is one thing 

[Ed]

Bear in mind in certain parts on North Yorkshire covid administration to hospital figures are still going up

I work at a West Yorkshire hospital, which covers a large part of North Yorkshire including some of the caving areas. Our covid cases are definitely going down.

Positive admissions to Harrogate are still increasing

[mikem]

On Thursday they only had 2 more patients than the previous week: https://www.hdft.nhs.uk/coronavirus/trust-wide-current-statistics/

[Ed]

On Thursday they only had 2 more patients than the previous week: https://www.hdft.nhs.uk/coronavirus/trust-wide-current-statistics/

That's in patients.... Not those that present to CAT and are "well" enough not to require staying.

There are also cases of post first vaccination jab infection.....

Not actually vaccinated until about 14 days after second dose.

All I'm saying is don't expect everything to open up and go back to 2019 for a fair while yet