Author Topic: Going caving in Tier3?  (Read 745 times)

Offline Brains

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Going caving in Tier3?
« on: November 28, 2020, 12:17:40 pm »
Hi Peeps, what are peoples interpretations for visiting the Peak (or other areas...) while under T3.
Assuming it is permissible, trips within the competence levels of the team and venues that are open / dont require calling on the locals for access are obvious requirements. BUT how far can I travel to the Peak and who / how many can I meet up with?
I have heard that groups of upto 6 can go caving together, and distance travelled isnt an issue, but is it really?
Appreciate any guidance will only be valid until the wind changes...

Offline Badlad

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Re: Going caving in Tier3?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2020, 02:26:09 pm »
CNCC have prepared a short statement giving some advice for caving in the Dales.  It should be published in the next few days.  Generally speaking it notes that the rule of six applies outdoors for both tiers and whilst travel is discouraged between areas it in not prohibited.  Exercise is good for you but do take care is the message.

A personal observation during this pandemic is that a number of members of the government and those in authority have either taken the view that government advice doesn't apply to them or taken a very liberal interpretation of it to suit what they wish to do.  It is not surprising that many of the public have followed their lead and is why we are suffering more from the pandemic than many others.  Contrast is easily observed by looking at such diverse countries as Vietnam and New Zealand which have almost no cases at all.  In the greater scheme of things going caving or not going caving is unlikely to have any effect on the pandemic at all. 

Offline bograt

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Re: Going caving in Tier3?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2020, 03:21:21 pm »
I wonder if this is going to revive the old chestnut debate about whether caving is considered an outdoor sport?
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Offline maxf

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Re: Going caving in Tier3?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2020, 03:38:56 pm »
When ever i feel i have to test my eye sight !

Offline pwhole

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Re: Going caving in Tier3?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2020, 06:00:36 pm »
Interestingly the concept of 'travel' itself is barely touched on in the rules, other than you may do it if you have to. But how you do it isn't discussed at all. I don't drive, so either go caving on the bus if I can, train (rarely), or I get a lift with someone who drives if it's in the middle of nowhere. One might imagine that all forms of enclosed vehicles are 'indoors', and yet it doesn't really specify that at all. I also live on my own, so if I go caving I have to meet with someone from another household if I'm not doing a solo trip, which is most of them. So according to the written rules, I can share a car and I can go caving, as it doesn't specifically exclude either, unless I take 'indoors' to literally mean anything that isn't 'open air'. Obviously I can open the car window. And obviously caves and mines have draughts.

In fact the mine I was in on Weds night with a friend (who also lives alone) had such a strong draught we actually discussed whether that was a good or bad thing in terms of transmitting it to each other, or blowing it away, and in which order we should sit in the passage - haha. If we have Covid that is, and are thus both asymptomatic. In which case - should we even give a shit? Even though we'd already shared the car on the way there, and obviously would on the way back. Madness.

It was only when my friend dropped me off at home that we realised we'd both forgotten to put our masks on for the return journey. Wa-wa-waaahh  :confused:

Offline Fishes

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Re: Going caving in Tier3?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2020, 07:03:15 pm »
There is quite a lot of bad feeling towards people travelling into the peak district at the moment. It has been very busy during the current "lockdown" I don't imagine that will change with a move to tier 3.

The decision to allow travel for exercise without imposing a limit on distance is a big difference compared to the first one.

Offline pwhole

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Re: Going caving in Tier3?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2020, 08:17:24 pm »
It may depend on who you are - I popped into the local shop in my 'regular country village' yesterday and was welcomed with open arms - almost literally. I had to buy a chocolate flapjack after that welcome. We had a right old natter and I had to leave, as I was making us late - and someone else wanted to come in. Though it's the first time I've been in three weeks and was just 'passing through'. Hi-viz and wellies helps ;)

Offline mikem

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Re: Going caving in Tier3?
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2020, 10:28:41 pm »
There are different rules for allowed open spaces between levels 2 & 3, but funnily enough it doesn't specify caving...

Offline tdobson

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Re: Going caving in Tier3?
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 04:38:36 pm »
I have heard that groups of upto 6 can go caving together, and distance travelled isnt an issue, but is it really?

That's my understanding. And probably if you follow the BCA advice, and write a formal risk assessment, you could have more than 6. Why you'd want more than 6 on a trip is entirely besides the point.

I ran trips prior to Lockdown 2.0 with 6 or less, though now I'm feeling a bit less sure. The headlines about infection rates don't make me personally, super psyched to bring people together too much right now, though that's probably also related to me feeling a bit tired over the past few weeks

I probably will do some, but I'm as eager as anyone not to increase exposure too much around Christmas.

Offline pwhole

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Re: Going caving in Tier3?
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 05:46:40 pm »
I think one issue often overlooked with all this is that often the caving itself isn't really the issue - in the sense that whether folks have Covid or not, they're unlikely to live near the caves, and more likely to live in or near Sheffield, Manchester, Derby, etc. All of which have higher rates of infection but also have more hospital beds available and a faster road network, etc., and so a 'better' place to get ill, compared to a more remote part of the countryside.

So as long as visitors can minimise close contact with villagers and try to avoid shared facilities in the countryside, then the only real risk when caving is to each other, and that's up to them to sort out. At the moment I mainly want to go digging, but we need a minimum of four, ideally six people to do it, all in one small passage with not much air circulation, so it's not really a goer right now, which is really frustrating, given where we are, but it's tough - it's not going anywhere. Though may collapse if left too long!

The real problem is we don't have many consistently large and draughty caves that folks could easily visit without too much risk to each other, if they were a larger group of, say six. The permutations for infection get increasingly scary for every person you add to the group. That's why they added another number to the National Lottery ;)

Offline Pete K

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Re: Going caving in Tier3?
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 06:38:26 pm »
From the Government website relating to T3 areas:

...organised outdoor sport, and physical activity and exercise classes can continue, however higher-risk contact activity should not take place...

...avoid travelling to other parts of the UK, including for overnight stays other than where necessary...

...you must not meet socially indoors or in most outdoor places with anybody you do not live with, or who is not in your support bubble, this includes in any private garden or at most outdoor venues...

Offline tdobson

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Re: Going caving in Tier3?
« Reply #11 on: Today at 03:19:01 am »
...you must not meet socially indoors or in most outdoor places with anybody you do not live with, or who is not in your support bubble, this includes in any private garden or at most outdoor venues...

I was guided in my thoughts on this by your post on FB a fair bit Pete, and I'm glad you joined this chat. Am I getting the sense from this quote, that you feel that caves count as "a private garden"?

I was reading this part:

Quote
"you must not socialise in a group of more than 6 in some other outdoor public spaces, including parks, beaches, countryside accessible to the public, a public garden, grounds of a heritage site or castle, or a sports facility – this is called the ‘rule of 6’"

Which I feel makes it an allowance for groups of 6 or fewer to meet in caves (or beaches!) and "socialise" (or cave).

I've read through the BCA Guidance, and I don't get the sense they feel it's a high-risk contact activity, but it occurs to me that it's potentially a subjective point that depends on the trip and the participants.
Ie Clients are more likely to need bunk up than that surprisingly sprightly sixty six year old SRT speed demon who's already sodded off halfway through the cave by the time I've put my SRT kit on.

Again, I've not planned any trips with more than 2 people (who are already in the same household), and feel too lazy/busy to do so at the moment - but taking the neither bullish nor risk averse line - bang on the guidelines - I am seeing that some trips could run.

Or am I reading something in the wrong light? I am very happy to change my views and will thank anyone who brings new perspectives here. :)

 

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