Author Topic: life insurance  (Read 3467 times)

Offline Antwan

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life insurance
« on: February 27, 2015, 09:09:56 pm »
Got a few 'quick quotes' and recieved a phone call from one company who said caving was not a problem. A few days later I received a phone call then went along the lines of 'we have noticed caving on your application, what does that mean', then today I had a call asking if I use ropes, followed by another asking if I go in water and how deep is it. Then a third call to ask if I was submerged how far would I swim.

No Idea if I am insured or not! Suppose I'll get another phone call

Anyone else had Issues with insurance? Or who would you recommend?

Offline crickleymal

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2015, 09:25:38 pm »
Yes I went through this rigmarole when we moved house and mortgage company. I forget who we ended up with but I'm insured because I never do more than 20 trips per year which of course is absolutely true. :ang:

One company refused to insure me because caving is a dangerous sport, I quoted figures from cave rescue which I read in a book a few years ago [1]. Nope didn't change their mind. I then asked if they were bothered that my daily commute was 50 miles each way on a motorbike, no they weren't bothered.

So you can be overweight, you can smoke (I don't but it would only put up the premium) and you can ride a sports motorbike and you'll get insurance. But heaven help you if you go caving.

[1] For your average weekend caver 140 years before cave rescue get called out and 1000 years before involvement in a serious or fatal accident. Taken from a book about caving which I read in the 1990s.
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Offline JJ

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2015, 09:42:27 pm »
Can I suggest that you speak/get a quote from Dave Hallam at Sports Financial Services for comparison. Dave is/was a keen caver and member of CRO etc. It is his company I think.

http://www.sports-fs.co.uk/life-insurance-for-caver/

This is the same as Summit Financial Services endorsed by the BMC. http://www.summit-fs.co.uk/

At one time he was certainly talking about no loading for caving especially if you were a member of a cave rescue team etc.

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2015, 09:44:05 pm »
Sports Financial Services is endorsed by BCA as well as the BMC.
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Offline JJ

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2015, 09:48:37 pm »

Online Pegasus

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2015, 11:00:27 pm »
....when asking about insurance some moons ago I was told I would be insured providing I didn't cave any deeper than 50m....!

Offline CatM

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2015, 11:55:46 am »
I also recommend sports-fs. They understand caving, and I'm insured for something like 50 trips a year as well as expeditions abroad, for significantly less than Aviva were going to charge.

Edit: Just found the details and with sports-fs it's £35 a month for us on a joint policy - both cavers. Aviva would have insured us but wanted to charge £70 pcm.


Offline Antwan

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2015, 02:20:08 pm »
Thanks for the replies and recommendations.

The company I have apparently been insured with (pending the underwriters decision it now seems) quoted me £6.30 PCM so I have a feeling the final decision may be a no thanks.

I'll give sport-fs a try once I get my 'current' policy in order.

Offline Antwan

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2015, 02:22:04 pm »
....when asking about insurance some moons ago I was told I would be insured providing I didn't cave any deeper than 50m....!

Interestingly they did say I wont be insured if I 'work at height' over 50m, I wonder if they implied the rule in reverse?

Offline Les W

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2015, 04:50:06 pm »
Interestingly they did say I wont be insured if I 'work at height' over 50m, I wonder if they implied the rule in reverse?
So presumably they think if you fall from below 50m you are unlikely to die...  :shrug:
I'm a very busy person

Offline Wayland Smith

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2015, 05:35:42 pm »
The sad thought is that you know full well that if you asked them to explain or justify 50m they could not.
I would love to stand by a tall building, or deep hole and ask the "expert" to point out 50m.  :blink:

Offline Roger W

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2015, 05:37:04 pm »
Falling through 49.9 metres is quite OK, Les.  It's the impact at the end of the last 10 cm that does for you.

I wondered if the regs specified something like "work above 50m = work at height," but no.

The HSE webpage says "Work at height means work in any place where, if precautions were not taken, a person could fall a distance liable to cause personal injury. You are working at height if you:

work above ground/floor level
could fall from an edge, through an opening or fragile surface or
could fall from ground level into an opening in a floor or a hole in the ground
Work at height does not include a slip or a trip on the level, as a fall from height has to involve a fall from one level to a lower level, nor does it include walking up and down a permanent staircase in a building."

"That, of course, is the dangerous part about caves:  you don't know how far they go back, sometimes... or what is waiting for you inside."   JRR Tolkein: "The Hobbit"

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2015, 06:25:47 pm »
Before the 2005 W@HRegs the HSE considered a fall of less than 2m to be not likely to cause personal injury. The HSE accident statistics from around that time however demonstrated very clearly that the majority of deaths as a result of a fall from height were from falls of less than 2m.

I was involved with one of the HSE committees in the lead up to the 2005 Regulations and heights of 0.75m and 0.60m were discussed as alternative acceptable fall distances until finally settling on the wording as supplied by Roger W.

A traffic warden working on or near kerbs inspecting your tax disk, particularly during an icy winter, would be considered as being working at height. Perhaps thats why we don't have tax disks anymore?

For the majority who die from the fall it is usually a head injury probably because their building site helmet fell off before they hit the floor or other obstruction on the way down. A very well known Derbyshire caver lost his life when he fell only a short distance from a scaffold when wearing only an unsecured building site helmet. 

Mark

Online MJenkinson

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2015, 11:14:05 am »
I have LS through these: http://www.scuba-fs.co.uk/

They did ask about caving, but didn't seem overly bothered.  The fact I work in West Africa, used to smoke, occasionally cave dive did prompt a few intakes of breath!

Offline JJ

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2015, 12:05:13 pm »
I have LS through these: http://www.scuba-fs.co.uk/

All the same outfit as Sports Financial Services

Online MarkS

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2017, 10:08:34 pm »
I know I'm reviving an old topic, but it makes sense to keep relevant discussions in one place.

I'm looking at life insurance options, and when getting a quote from Aviva the only sport/activity related question in the application process appears to be:

Do you take part in any of the following activities?
Please tick all that apply.
- Underwater diving
- Mountaineering or rock climbing
- Flying (other than as a fare paying passenger), hang gliding or paragliding
- Motorcar or motorbike racing
- Parachuting, skydiving or BASE jumping

On this thread and others, several people have suggested that caving has caused problems and/or resulted in high premiums, but in this case there appears to be no opportunity to mention caving in the application process. Would it be naive to think that the policy should cover activities other than those specified, e.g. caving? Any thoughts/advice welcome.

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2017, 12:47:35 am »
My understanding is that the Consumer Insurance (Disclosure and Representations) Act 2012 places the burden on the insurer to ask questions about factors which may affect the cover they provide and the consumer is not obliged to do anything other than answer truthfully the questions as presented to them.

In other words, if caving is not one of the things they specifically require you to tell them about then you don't need to mention it.

I am not legally qualified and this advice is worth no more than what you paid for it, but it may help you to ask the right questions of someone whose advice you can rely on.
"Economics is simply the branch of sociology that deals with people trading items and the fact that they use more numbers does not make it anymore of a science."

Offline royfellows

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2017, 08:27:18 am »
The thought occurs that someone who actively seeks to obtain life insurance rather than being coerced into purchasing it by high pressure sales techniques emanating from a cold telephone call could possibly arouse suspicion.
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Online MJenkinson

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2017, 08:51:33 am »
I got several quotes via scuba FS and Aviva.

The premium to cover me climbing, diving, caving and cave diving was frankly stupid so I have ended up with a "mixed solution".

I have a policy with a fixed pay out if I die due to various sports (inc caving and cave diving), but it won't cover the mortgage - it's a healthy sum mind and would certainly pay off half of it.  This is with SFS.

I then have life and critical illness cover BUT I have had to sign an understanding that if I kark it due to a list of sports, or suffer life changing / critical injury then they don't pay out.    This is with Aviva and will pay the mortgage off plus cash lump sum etc. 

I am happy with this as realistically I will die from a car crash or cancer or heart attack.  It is also just about affordable.


Offline crickleymal

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2017, 02:28:18 pm »
The thought occurs that someone who actively seeks to obtain life insurance rather than being coerced into purchasing it by high pressure sales techniques emanating from a cold telephone call could possibly arouse suspicion.

Maybe but most of us have to have it as a requirement of our mortgage.
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Online MarkS

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Re: life insurance
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2017, 10:34:49 pm »
Thanks for the replies, and pointers to information.

For the potential benefit of others, my research led me to this page, which seems quite informative and clear.
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/misrepresentation-and-non-disclosure.htm