Author Topic: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction  (Read 2243 times)

Offline gingernutcrazy

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North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« on: May 02, 2021, 04:03:38 pm »
Looks like The North Face are now supporting active damage to caves and Speleothems.
The further issue is I've already seen a comment around saying "Let's try this in the Dales"...... :furious:

https://www.facebook.com/.../a.95211196.../1639754326210248/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CON68gAB1cy/
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Offline gingernutcrazy

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2021, 04:04:46 pm »
Looks like The North Face are now supporting active damage to caves and Speleothems.
The further issue is I've already seen a comment around saying "Let's try this in the Dales"...... :furious:

https://www.facebook.com/.../a.95211196.../1639754326210248/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CON68gAB1cy/

This FB Link should work https://www.facebook.com/groups/217322091663839/permalink/4094711627258180/
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Offline David Rose

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2021, 07:03:53 pm »
People need to look at this.

For commercial reasons and so-called sport, North Face has sponsored the desecration of a fine array of formations, with the use of chalk, and in the increasingly heated Facebook thread, the perpetrators are refusing to back down against a swelling chorus of dismay from cavers, some of them quite well known.

Not acceptable, let alone - as those responsible seem to think - cool.


Offline EFRESHW

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2021, 07:53:11 pm »
Ugh. This was so uncomfortable to watch. Big Yikes. It made me so shocked and dismayed. However, the Instagram comments made me feel a hell of a lot better, since *ALOT* of them were in disgust at it, too.  :weep:
Cave conservation is becoming such a high priority for me right now, and the only upside I can muster out is that we're all doing a great job in getting the word out and doing the best we can to educate new cavers. It was a main focus when I was a fresher, and I want that part of our community to be maintained.

Online Fjell

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2021, 08:02:59 pm »
Set the NSS on North Face if they are actually paying money to these people. Those involved will rapidly find themselves NRB.


Offline 2xw

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2021, 09:43:45 pm »
It's a shame about what has happened to climbing, suffering from its own popularity.

Offline Steve Clark

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2021, 12:58:52 am »
Actually now being reported on UKClimbing as (apparently good) news. Outrageous.

Online Mark

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2021, 05:43:50 am »

North Face has sponsored the desecration of a fine array of formations, with the use of chalk,


Although I disapprove of any sort of sponsorship for this type of activity, are chalk and calcite not made of exactly the same stuff,

I can also think of several places in the Peak District, where cavers have taken considerably less care, ascending calcite ramps and walls to access new passages

Offline 2xw

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2021, 08:39:47 am »

North Face has sponsored the desecration of a fine array of formations, with the use of chalk,


Although I disapprove of any sort of sponsorship for this type of activity, are chalk and calcite not made of exactly the same stuff,

I can also think of several places in the Peak District, where cavers have taken considerably less care, ascending calcite ramps and walls to access new passages

I wouldn't be as arsed if they'd done it for fun on their own. We have all damaged stuff underground one way or another - but it's the commercialisation of that damage that ires me, and the presentation of it as something that is desirable and fun. I don't see any difference between it and those lads that filmed themselves spray painting in Giants

Online pwhole

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2021, 10:44:10 am »
Quote
I don't see any difference between it and those lads that filmed themselves spray painting in Giants

And if facebook and Instagram weren't involved, chances are neither of these events would have even taken place. 'The medium is the message', to quote a philostopher. I just watched some dumb-ass woman telling breakfast news that she no longer wants to promote her fat-ass Indian snake-oil potion to her 'followers' (she's just like Jesus) as it's potentially lethal - despite spending the last year flogging it to death on facebook and Instagram, directly causing all sorts of misery and health issues for young women who think they need a fat ass, as people on facebook and Instagram told them they need one. She only just found out it's potentially lethal, apparently.

Online mikem

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2021, 12:09:58 pm »
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 12:21:40 pm by mikem »

Offline royfellows

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2021, 02:21:21 pm »
The full article (with their justifications & others' comments):
http://onceuponaclimb.co.uk/portfolio-posts/underground-climbing/

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1639754449543569&id=169053393280356&anchor_composer=false

We'll see if the film appears on Wednesday...

I have just tried the first link and cant get in. Probably server overload with all the people who want to see what possible justification etc
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Online mikem

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2021, 02:42:35 pm »
It does take a while, but that could just be the website, as dated 2013

Online pwhole

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2021, 02:47:27 pm »
It took about five mins to load for me, but it did eventually. Possibly they forgot to scale the images to web-size, and their server's having to do it on-the-fly for every request, as the text that's up there is certainly not overwhelming in volume.

Offline SamT

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2021, 05:38:12 pm »
Climbing has always gone on underground.

From the big bolt climbs of Ben Bentham in Oxlow, Busters journey across the roof of peak cavern vestibule, Malc Taylors esoterica in Eldon hole, (recently repeated, and a new route added up the west wall opposite https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/eldon_hole-27090 )

Dave Macleod climbing out of Jingling in prep for his free version of busters route at Peak cavern as seen on TV. 

Its nothing new, and as Mark points out, those who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones.  Cavers, collectively over the years have been totally responsible for the desecration of flowstone formations in their quest to explore further, which may well be excusable in the first instance of virgin exploration, but these formations often then just become part of a trade route and suffer accordingly.

I was expecting to see much worse when I clicked on the video, snapping stal, avalanches of loose rock being gardened and crashing down the formations etc etc.

Looks like they placed a few bolts and gingerly climbed out. No worse than any cavers actions underground.

All that being said, its a total publicity stunt and one of the reasons that James Pearson bugs the life out of me.  Impressive as his climbing is, and he's genuinely one if the most talented climbers in the world, he's just at total media whore. Everything he and Carloline do is done in a total Social Media/Sponsorship frame. Even worse than Ondra so I've very little attention span for anything they do really.

So from that angle, I'm perfectly happy for them to be called out on it.




Offline ZombieCake

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2021, 10:35:54 pm »
Preserving the environment is fine and dandy, until there's money or other incentive involved.
People should have learned from the mistakes made in the past to prevent future desecrations as far as possible, and not emulate them. Of course there's a balance to be struck, but that should be based on a real need with no other option, and not just for glory.  Couldn't they have just SRT'd the 'once upon a climb' pitch in the link?

Online PeteHall

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2021, 10:17:31 am »
Cavers, collectively over the years have been totally responsible for the desecration of flowstone formations in their quest to explore further, which may well be excusable in the first instance of virgin exploration, but these formations often then just become part of a trade route and suffer accordingly.
True, but if it's the only way to get somewhere, it in basically unavoidable.

Quote
Looks like they placed a few bolts and gingerly climbed out. No worse than any cavers actions underground.
Except that it was climbed simply for the thrill of climbing it, to reach a point that was already accessible by another better route (eg, walking to it from outside). The damage caused here was completely avoidable and may well inspire others to do similar avoidable damage elsewhere.

Offline SamT

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2021, 10:43:06 am »
Except that it was climbed simply for the thrill of climbing it, to reach a point that was already accessible by another better route (eg, walking to it from outside). The damage caused here was completely avoidable and may well inspire others to do similar avoidable damage elsewhere.


Yeah - totally agree.  Pure publicity stunt as per usual with those two.  But I'm just not sure the derision voiced on here is quite warranted.  As far as I could see, they didn't really damage anything.

Offline ttxela2

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2021, 02:11:00 pm »
Except that it was climbed simply for the thrill of climbing it, to reach a point that was already accessible by another better route (eg, walking to it from outside). The damage caused here was completely avoidable and may well inspire others to do similar avoidable damage elsewhere.


Yeah - totally agree.  Pure publicity stunt as per usual with those two.  But I'm just not sure the derision voiced on here is quite warranted.  As far as I could see, they didn't really damage anything.

I've had 6 year olds who've visited a couple of showcaves explain to me how you shouldn't touch the formations.

The cynic in me wonders if they knew full well this would cause some controversy. Certainly a lot more people have seen it and talked about it than if they'd done a normal caving trip. No such thing as bad publicity etc..

Offline Cantclimbtom

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2021, 03:22:36 pm »
... ... No such thing as bad publicity etc..
I'm not so sure about that, my first thought is a glib "oh yes? just ask Garry Glitter's booking agent" to whether all publicity is ultimately good.

But, a more sensible answer is to look closer at James Pearson who was filmed climbing that with his wife Caro (Caroline Ciavaldini). He had some negative publicity a few years ago and accused of mis-grading things (not cool as a climber!) and various criticism, from a publicity standpoint he kind of had to redeem himself.
I'd have thought that he would've been extra cautious to avoid any negative publicity or controversy and definitely wouldn't want to be perceived as damaging anything. I'm baffled by this!

Edit, there's even a film about his redemption, called... guess what...
Teaser trailer here: https://www.hotaches.com/climbing-films/redemption-the-james-pearson-story  if you like climbing the film is actually very good, think it's free to view on Amazon prime?

Edit2:  maybe this is so he can have a sequel to that film "Redemption2: how I feel bad about damaging cave formations"
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Online mikem

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2021, 03:28:27 pm »
TBF North Face either haven't used this in their social media, or removed it pretty early on. It's been posted by the climbers' themselves (with support from the caver who seems to have suggested it to them).

Offline lumenchild

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2021, 03:50:14 pm »
I'd like to see them try climb Diccan, in winter full flow LoL,

that being said the commercialisation of caving, is going to cause a massive spike in CRO callouts, from inexperienced people in caves, ill Equipped thinking they are Indiana Jones,

If that happens will we have to look at a cap, key, and permit system, on caves grade 3 and higher, with life-changing verticality, with a vertical cavers proficiency card, and will we have to have even more protections for SSSI's

the list of problems this could create are phenomenal, but I guess only time will tell,  I would Urge the BCA & BCRA to release a statement on their stance of climbing in caves, using chalk ect...  and trad gear like cam's and nuts, instead of designated bolts,
With a Re-release of the dangers of using dynamic rope in caves, and the sharp edges of eroded limestone,   :chair:
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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2021, 04:02:14 pm »
Playing devil's advocate for a minute:

People are usually complaining that cavers are getting older and not enough people are getting into the sport. Perhaps this is a great way to sex-up caving and generate a wider appeal?

It's surely just another way to enjoy the incredible cave environment.  :shrug:

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2021, 04:03:18 pm »
I'm hoping that the following was tongue in cheek:

"we have to look at a cap, key, and permit system, on caves grade 3 and higher, with life-changing verticality, with a vertical cavers proficiency card"   ;)

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2021, 04:09:17 pm »
I'd like to see them try climb Diccan, in winter full flow LoL,

that being said the commercialisation of caving, is going to cause a massive spike in CRO callouts, from inexperienced people in caves, ill Equipped thinking they are Indiana Jones,

If that happens will we have to look at a cap, key, and permit system, on caves grade 3 and higher, with life-changing verticality, with a vertical cavers proficiency card, and will we have to have even more protections for SSSI's

the list of problems this could create are phenomenal, but I guess only time will tell,  I would Urge the BCA & BCRA to release a statement on their stance of climbing in caves, using chalk ect...  and trad gear like cam's and nuts, instead of designated bolts,
With a Re-release of the dangers of using dynamic rope in caves, and the sharp edges of eroded limestone,   :chair:

This is one helluva comment to dissect. Like Pitlamp, I'm desperately hoping the entire thing is tongue in cheek.
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Online mikem

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2021, 04:18:34 pm »
Just as well it's never going to happen - they're not that much of an influencer (& we've survived several other stunts)

Offline Pete K

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2021, 07:47:05 pm »
An apology has appeared on their FB page.

Quote
A Statement on our Underground Project:
As climbers, we take great care in our approach to our natural playground. The very ethos of being a trad-climber is defined by its ‘leave no trace’ philosophy and this is a guiding principle that runs through everything we do, not just as climbers, but as people.
As professional athletes, we’re privileged to have the opportunity to explore the world around us, to go to places rarely touched by human hand and experience nature at its wildest. We recognise with this privilege comes a responsibility to ensure we not only leave no trace, but to actively help promote good environmental practices through our content.
Throughout many years of exploration, we have always made a concentrated effort to educate ourselves on, and adhere to, local ethics, practises and traditions. We do this by seeking expert advice from different fields before undertaking any expedition. Our recent Underground Project was no exception and we followed guidance from experienced caving experts. Whilst we felt safe in the knowledge that we had the support and guidance of local experts, we are now aware that our understanding of the diverse caving practises and conservation efforts on a global level were limited.
We’d like to, not only, apologise for causing concern in the caving community, but take steps to educate ourselves and other climbers on the importance of cave structures and ethics. We are now speaking with both local and global caving associations to organise educational sessions for ourselves and other climbers to be better informed and educated on the issue, and will be proactively looking at other ways we can help preserve and protect caves and cave structures in any future exploration.
As ever, we continue to learn and grow and appreciate the diverse communities we connect with. We will share more details on our actions to support the world of caving as soon as we can.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2021, 08:22:01 pm »
It looks a lot from FB like their mate Phil Bence, who is a caver (supposedly at least), told them this was fine. So basically it looks like they were horribly mislead by someone who should have known better. In other words, direct your vitriol not at the climbers who didn't know better, but the caver who told them this was fine... (and then put up a spirited defence on FB arguing this)

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2021, 09:01:57 pm »
Thanks for posting that Pete K - it appears that the penny's dropped. Assuming that's sincere, it may actually lead to a better situation generally in the long term.

I did note that their original material describing the climb alluded to conservation issues in places, so they'd clearly thought about it at least.

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Offline droid

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2021, 09:04:43 pm »
Bit patronising suggesting the climbers didn't think their actions would upset cavers.

Unless climbers have got considerably more stupid over tha last couple of decades  :lol:
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Offline gingernutcrazy

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2021, 10:10:34 pm »
It looks a lot from FB like their mate Phil Bence, who is a caver (supposedly at least), told them this was fine. So basically it looks like they were horribly mislead by someone who should have known better. In other words, direct your vitriol not at the climbers who didn't know better, but the caver who told them this was fine... (and then put up a spirited defence on FB arguing this)

I also do seriously question how much of a 'caver' he is...  when he's saying, to quote "if you do caving just for leisure and no exploration you also have no excuse to go underground..."  :-\
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Online mikem

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2021, 11:06:12 am »
Original article on climbers' website appears to have been removed as well (there are still lots of links doing the rounds on social media):
http://onceuponaclimb.co.uk/stories/#!

Phillipe Bence is sponsored by Petzl:
https://climbfitme.wordpress.com/tag/phil-bence/

& also a photographer / film maker:
https://filmfreeway.com/FirstSteps

Online ChrisJC

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Re: North Face Supporting Cave Destruction
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2021, 11:49:08 am »
Now that's done and dusted, we can get back to using explosives under Dowlass Moss...

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