Author Topic: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC  (Read 8644 times)

Offline pwhole

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3132
  • TSG, DCA, PDMHS
    • Phil Wolstenholme website
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2021, 10:33:16 pm »
One thing that's not entirely obvious (until you get there) is that the deviation on the pitch into the Bell Chamber needs to be very short - no more than about 15cm, due to the hade of the shaft, so a tiny sling or maybe just two or three krabs instead is sufficient. Obviously a rebelay would resolve the problem if the rope was long enough and you could be bothered.

Offline wellyjen

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2021, 06:17:35 pm »
A minor update. For some of the Peak/Speedwell system topos there were links to the DCA (ex Hitch 'n' Hike) microguides. A link on the web page and a QR code on the topo. DCA have been revamping the peakdistrictcaving.info web site and the links are broken. It doesn't seem possible to link to the pdf's directly any more. The links on the rigging guide page and the QR codes on the topos have been removed. The microguides are still available via the peakdistrictcaving.info link and the web page tells you which microguide is appropriate for the respective topo. The new guide version is 13.8.
The affected topos are for Far Sump Extensions, George Cooper's Aven, Victoria Aven and the White River Series.
Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me.
CCPC

Offline wellyjen

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2021, 07:21:55 pm »
Latest updates to the guide, version 13.9:

The P8 topo now has more detailed drawings of the area around Idiot's Leap to help navigation and updated rigging of the high level routes there. There is some confusion as to which of the two high level SRT routes is the one actually called Boney Pitch, so for now the name has been removed. The rigging for the Iron Ladder pitch has been corrected. We had the two anchors used to descend the pitch being part of the high level traverse, when in fact they are a couple of metres lower down and on the opposite wall. The DCA topo has the same thing. There is some confusion over the name of Stalagmite Passage. In surveys it is called Stalagmite Passage, but in lots of guide books over the years it is called Stalactite Passage, even if it is called Stalagmite in a survey in the same book. The same mismatch seems to have been copied from one guide book to the next over the decades. We are trying to trace the name back to the earliest exploration, with help from various people. For now, it stays as Stalagmite. My suggestion has been to compromise and rename it Stagatite Passage!  ;D

Snelsow Swallet now includes the rigging for the lower pitch. This is on stainless expansion anchors. Not official DCA anchors, but well placed. The DCA are still working on the anchors and lid for the top entrance, so for now, this part of the cave has been removed from the topo, but there is space for it to go, when the route is open for business.

At Eldon Hole, the South Gully route topo has been modified to make rigging and using the route a little easier. There are two anchors about a metre apart on the East Wall, where the gully goes vertical, the second of which was shared with the East Wall route. Getting to the second anchor from the first was awkward and adds nothing to the safety of the route, so the rebelay on the topo now goes from the first anchor. Provided the deviation on the West Wall is used, then all should be well.

Corrected the introduction. The date of our first publised rigging guide was 1994.

Jen
Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me.
CCPC

Offline pwhole

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3132
  • TSG, DCA, PDMHS
    • Phil Wolstenholme website
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2021, 08:56:09 pm »
Getting to the second anchor from the first was awkward and adds nothing to the safety of the route, so the rebelay on the topo now goes from the first anchor. Provided the deviation on the West Wall is used, then all should be well.
Jen

That's excellent news as I rigged that pitch a few weeks ago and had no idea that second anchor was there until I got to the bottom and Wayne mentioned it. As you point out, we didn't need it. In fact it was the day we met you at the top. A few more anchors on all those single-anchor 20m+ pitches wouldn't go amiss though, especially on the North route, where there are two in sequence with 40m of fresh air inbetween. How long have they been in there? ;)

Offline Pete K

  • Pete Knight
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1743
  • DCA, TSG, DCRO, PDMHS, DCMC, YSS
    • Peak Instruction
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2021, 08:59:51 pm »
Nige Atkins bolted pitches in P8 and I asked him about the names a while ago.
The one that lands from the high level at the base of Idiot's Leap is the Boney Pitch. The one that lands on the sharp corner further down the streamway after the climb over the boulder is the Far Flats Pitch. There are other pitches on Spits with names but I forget those.

Offline wellyjen

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2021, 09:13:48 pm »
Getting to the second anchor from the first was awkward and adds nothing to the safety of the route, so the rebelay on the topo now goes from the first anchor. Provided the deviation on the West Wall is used, then all should be well.
Jen

That's excellent news as I rigged that pitch a few weeks ago and had no idea that second anchor was there until I got to the bottom and Wayne mentioned it. As you point out, we didn't need it. In fact it was the day we met you at the top. A few more anchors on all those single-anchor 20m+ pitches wouldn't go amiss though, especially on the North route, where there are two in sequence with 40m of fresh air inbetween. How long have they been in there? ;)

The earliest rigging guide I have is around 2005 and it hadn't changed since then. My understanding is that double anchors are more important when you have a short distance to the next anchor above. If a single anchor pops with a short distance to the next anchor, then the fall factor with the loop of rope is much much higher than with a long distance between anchors. However, if a single anchor after a long drop would lead to the rope going over a sharp edge, or loose rock, or in to a waterfall if it failed, then it is worth doubling them up. Can't remember what the North Gully route is like in that respect.

Nige Atkins bolted pitches in P8 and I asked him about the names a while ago.
The one that lands from the high level at the base of Idiot's Leap is the Boney Pitch. The one that lands on the sharp corner further down the streamway after the climb over the boulder is the Far Flats Pitch. There are other pitches on Spits with names but I forget those.

Thanks Pete,
That was the the consensus of those in the club, but we were not 100% sure. I didn't know that Nigel had done the bolting originally. It seems that the Far Flats pitch was never named in the topo and over time and redraws the Boney Pitch name drifted across from where it should be to where Far Flats Pitch is. The names will probably go back in for the next revision.
Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me.
CCPC

Offline wellyjen

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2021, 07:50:08 am »
The rigging guide has been updated. The new version is 14.0.

In the P8 topo, the names of the pitches above Idiot's Leap have been added/reinstated after Pete Knight confirmed the names above. The name of Stalagtite (sic) Passage has been changed to the earliest known published spelling from a survey in BSA Bulletin 62, 1967, which is only three years after the cave was discovered. Thanks to Clive Westlake for digging through the Wessex Club library archives to find this. I can now see how it got confused, with various guide book texts calling it Stalactite Passage and subsequent surveys naming it Stalagmite Passage. The contradictory names being copied from book to book and survey to survey down the years. It seems my joke in reply 52 of compromising and calling it Stagatite Passage wasn't so far off the mark!  :)

The Giant's Hole topos have been condensed from three pages to two. The first covers the main route from Garlands Pot to the East Canal. The second covers other pitches in the system. The pull through from the Upper Passage to the Crabwalk has been added.

A new Safety section replaces the Warnings and Disclaimers and Resin Fixed Anchor Safety paragraphs after the Introduction.

The guide pages have been renumbered to take in to account the added and removed pages over the last few months. You may need to refresh the page, or clear your browser cache to make sure you see the new versions of topos. If you have a printed guide, then the best thing is probably reprint it. A tree will need to die I'm afraid.

Jen
Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me.
CCPC

Offline mikem

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4980
  • Mendip Caving Group
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2021, 08:27:04 am »
Was stalagtite written more than once? As journals & logbooks from that period aren't known for their spelling...

Offline wellyjen

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2021, 08:58:10 am »
Was stalagtite written more than once? As journals & logbooks from that period aren't known for their spelling...
No. That is the only one we have been able to find. The same journal doesn't mention the passage by name. However it is the earliest yet and there is no consistency in anything published later. Do you know of any earlier journals, or log books still accessible that could shed more light? I could just as easily remove the name from the topo, as it isn't of much importance for the rigging.
Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me.
CCPC

Offline mikem

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4980
  • Mendip Caving Group
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2021, 05:42:53 pm »
As it's the earliest reference it's probably best to leave it on the topo, as otherwise the multiple different names are likely to continue - good to aim for consistency, even if it's not actually correct.

Offline wellyjen

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2021, 07:03:27 pm »
It isn't ideal, but at the moment it is the earliest and only record we've seen of what the discovers intended to name it. It could well just be a spellling mishtake by whoever draw up the survey. You can imagine how different people writing about the cave subsequently interpreted the word as either stalactite, or stalagmite, possibly without even realising they were misreading what was on the survey. People see what they expect to see, leading to confusion ever since. Any way, I do like the idea of mentally tripping people up when they see the topo!
Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me.
CCPC

Offline wellyjen

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2021, 06:48:02 pm »
This is something that has been bugging me since redrawing the topos for the on-line guide early last year. There wasn't a symbol for scaffold poles being used to belay from. The Peak District seems to have more than its fair share of these. Many site entrances being old mine shafts, where a scaff pole can be built in just under the lid. We haven't had a special symbol for scaff poles before. Instead we used the same symbol, an open circle, for natural anchor points; a source of possible confusion.

The symbol chosen is this:



The idea being that it looks a bit like a scaff pole seen in perspective and is obviously different from other symbols we use.

The following pages in the guide have been updated as a result: Cover, Key, Safety, Eyam Dale House Cave, Lathkill Head Cave - Garden Path, Lathkill Head Cave - Upper Entrance, James Hall Over Engine Mine, Long Rake Mine (Bradwell), Maskhill Mine, Nickergrove Mine, Oxlow Cavern, Rowter Hole topo 1, Snake Mine (both topos), Water Icicle Close Cavern and Deep Shaft (Day Shaft). The current version is now 14.1.
Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me.
CCPC

Offline wellyjen

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2021, 09:01:15 pm »
The rigging guide has an update for the James Hall Over Engine Mine topo to add the backup eye bolts on the surface recently installed by DCA. See Derbyshire Caver 155. https://www.thedca.org.uk/publications/newsletters/send/3-derbyshire-caver/174-derbyshire-caver-155. The entrance shaft rope length has been increased to suit.
A mention of ash die back disease has been added to the safety section,  with its deleterious effect on the strength of trees used for belays. The new version is edition 14.2.
Jen

Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me.
CCPC

Offline wellyjen

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2021, 07:18:55 pm »
The James Hall Over Engine Mine topo has been updated to better match reality. In particular, in the lower part of Leviathan, the survey was effectively rotated 180 degrees about the vertical axis, so the Tea Rooms were on the wrong side and the final rope appeared to landed you close to the Speedwell connection side of the shaft, rather than on the Far Sump connection side. The topo has been like this for several decades. I blame the much poorer lights we had back then, not letting us appreciate the layout of the shaft. The topo has now been split over two pages. Surface to The Workshop on one and Leviathan on the other. The JH and Titan topos have been moved in the guide from from within the Peak/Speedwell system section to being entrances in their own right, positioned alphabetically in the Castleton area section of the guide. This matches the approach used by https://www.peakdistrictcaving.info. For edition 14.3, the page numbers have been updated to suit the new positions of the topos. A printed guide will need reprinting. The guide revision history was getting long, so it has been moved to a separate web page to speed the loading of the rigging guide page.
Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me.
CCPC

Offline Cantclimbtom

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 402
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2021, 04:45:16 pm »
There is a slight possiblity I know who the original discoverers of P8 were (mentioned in a different thread) this is not verified in any way so I not stating any definite claims. I'm trying to contact the surviving brother and have emailed him and now trying a second email address but still no reply, he is very very elderly and I haven't had contact for some time so maybe no longer uses email? If I get contact and if he  does claim to have discovered it, I will ask if variations of "stalacmite" (etc)  mean anything  to him and if it's a spelling joke or copying error or what. Don't hold your breath though, it may not go anywhere or might just be a big misunderstanding. I'll let you know if it yields any info.
Expert in incompetent tomfoolery

Offline Cantclimbtom

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 402
Re: Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2021, 12:50:08 pm »
Ok, spoke to him briefly and it helped make some sense out of my Dad's mangled story. The guy I spoke to hadn't discovered P8/Jackpot (as my Dad thought). It was discovered by members of Stockport Caving Club only a short while before he went in in 1964 and he and his brother were early explorers e.g. digging and "dry stone walling" to shore up the original entrance. He knows P8, from the start.

I plan to speak to him again, if anyone has any P8 historical questions, such as stalacmite/stalagmite/stalactite passage please PM me. Can't guarantee he'll know, but I can try to ask.. Don't ask anything involving roped pitches though, unless you mean rope ladders (pre electron!)
Expert in incompetent tomfoolery

 

Main Menu

Forum Home Help Search
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal