Author Topic: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***  (Read 4195 times)

Offline burrencrawler

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A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« on: January 27, 2015, 11:21:24 pm »
Watch this and tell me it wouldnt work. We aimed the thermal camera at a field from the car window, and we could 'see' the cave......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfockes3Q7Y&feature=youtu.be

Offline Pegasus

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2015, 11:38:38 pm »
....and there was me walking around looking in shakeholes plugged with snow looking for holes the draught had made at the weekend - did find one though! 

Fascinating film  :thumbsup:

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2015, 07:22:46 am »
Spanish cavers in Andalucia were doing precisely this about five years ago with good results. Surprised if it isn't standard practice during winter months by now.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2015, 08:57:12 am »
Surprised if it isn't standard practice during winter months by now.

Me too.

So how do I go about getting my own thermal imaging camera - want to give this a try!

Offline burrencrawler

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2015, 01:34:17 pm »
You order one here:

http://www.flir.com/flirone/   :)

Offline Pegasus

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2015, 02:29:12 pm »
Thanks!  :thumbsup:

Offline Swallowneck

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2015, 04:14:44 pm »
Just ordered one though work. Just the job for looking though wiring panels on machines and a lot cheaper than a full blown IR thermal camera.
Did someone say you can use it to find caves, what a stroke of luck!!

Offline TomSouthCoast

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 04:53:55 pm »
Thought about doing this to look for some potential caves in an area the cap'n knows well, however I was put off by some of the reading I done on the topic. Might be something I have to rethink now!

Offline Pegasus

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2015, 09:36:14 pm »
I'm amazed cavers haven't picked up on this idea more since seeing the video - am I missing something?  It can't be that easy can it??


Offline SamT

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2015, 09:50:34 pm »
I have a 'full blown' flir thermal imaging camera and I had a quick play last year in snowy conditions.

I was relatively put off as we had poor results

see  http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14554.msg189610#msg189610

On the evening of our experiment, I had a few ideas of where there might be run in shafts that might be drafting and they showed nothing.  Hence, I dont think you'd see anything that you wouldn't see with your naked eye anyway. i.e. something that is 'open'.

I can see that flying a drone with one, will find you 'open' shafts on a large plateau over a wide area.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2015, 10:02:50 pm »
I have a 'full blown' flir thermal imaging camera and I had a quick play last year in snowy conditions.

I was relatively put off as we had poor results

see  http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14554.msg189610#msg189610

On the evening of our experiment, I had a few ideas of where there might be run in shafts that might be drafting and they showed nothing.  Hence, I dont think you'd see anything that you wouldn't see with your naked eye anyway. i.e. something that is 'open'.

I can see that flying a drone with one, will find you 'open' shafts on a large plateau over a wide area.

Read the thread, thanks Sam.  So draughts not easy to detect, open shafts are - so, no not that easy..... :(


Offline burrencrawler

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2015, 11:00:20 am »
Well this all highly experimental, and obviously if someone finds a cave (not an open shaft) by detecting a warm draught coming out of a tiny hole that can be dug, well then this would be the whole point of the exercise. That's why in the video we sparked up the joss stick to see which way the draft was going. We thought we would see nothing as the draft was going in, but then the cave entrance showed up 'red hot' with the cold air going IN. There is no reason why in a cold day when the atmospheric pressure is on the rise, and hence would suck out the drafts out of caves (to equalize pressure inside), that the camera should not see the whisps of warm air, even through a small hole. This is pure theory of course. Lets see if someone can put this to practice.

Offline SamT

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2015, 12:55:40 pm »

Problem with that though is as I've mentioned on previous threads, air doesn't really radiate heat very well and an IR camera can only 'see' radiated heat.  Thus open shafts or crevices where the rock just below the surface are warmer will show up very well.

Lid/shaft shown in the link above I'm sure were drafting out, the snow around the shaft top had melted, however it doesn't show on the camera at all.

I'm not trying to put you off, and good effort for getting it all set up, however, don't get your hopes up about 'seeing' drafts.


Offline Pegasus

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2015, 01:16:17 pm »
Thanks for the links, Duncan.

Burrencrawler - do let us know how you get on with future filming of cave entrances etc, cheers, Jane

Offline burrencrawler

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2015, 02:31:35 pm »
Hey Jane,
          I sure will. We are going to mount the thermal camera onto a bigger and better drone next time, to eliminate balance issues, and will see if we can detect drafts. I'll keep you posted, don't worry. Thanks for the encouragement. Quentin

Offline bograt

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2015, 03:02:44 pm »
Thermal imaging using 'Drones', superb idea  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Offline braveduck

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2015, 04:57:49 pm »
The best way to see a draft is to use cold canned smoke ! :)

Offline Pegasus

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2015, 05:21:13 pm »
Hey Jane,
          I sure will. We are going to mount the thermal camera onto a bigger and better drone next time, to eliminate balance issues, and will see if we can detect drafts. I'll keep you posted, don't worry. Thanks for the encouragement. Quentin

Thanks, Quentin - am loving this thread  ;D

Offline Swallowneck

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2015, 03:27:24 pm »
Camera arrived and in use.
Already found a contactor about to go into meltdown. That saved a possible weekend call out. It's nearly paid for itself already.
Now for that Nidderdale master cave on Sunday.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2015, 03:36:13 pm »
Camera arrived and in use.
Already found a contactor about to go into meltdown. That saved a possible weekend call out. It's nearly paid for itself already.
Now for that Nidderdale master cave on Sunday.

Great, good luck with that master cave!

Would you post some photos of your cave hunting exploits please??   :thumbsup:

Offline Juan

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2017, 02:43:14 pm »
In Matienzo this summer, I used a Flir One infrared camera attached to an Android device with successful and interesting results which are documented on the Matienzo Caves Project website: http://www.matienzocaves.org.uk/science/IR.htm
The main conclusion is, although cool places on the hillside may give false promises, a cool draughting hole will show a trail of cooler vegetation below and beyond.

Online Kenilworth

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2017, 03:30:40 am »

Here is another wintertime example. This was a school project and quite successful. The cave wasn't really interesting but the camera did an excellent job of showing warm blowholes. I helped on the dig (and might be in the video) and was inspired to get such a camera. Too much money though at last check, the one used here was purchased by the university.

Offline AR

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2017, 09:13:17 am »
A friend of mine took a thermal camera down to the riverside at Matlock Bath and tried one of the locations where there's supposed to be a sough tail. Even though there's not much apparent to the naked eye, the thermal camera clearly showed the warmer mine water emerging from the bank and flowing downstream.
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Offline andrewmc

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Re: A new way to find new caves ***VIDEO***
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2017, 11:23:06 pm »
A friend of mine took a thermal camera down to the riverside at Matlock Bath and tried one of the locations where there's supposed to be a sough tail. Even though there's not much apparent to the naked eye, the thermal camera clearly showed the warmer mine water emerging from the bank and flowing downstream.

Water will emit much more thermal radiation than air, and so be much more visible.

If you have a draughting cave, you might see the effect on the surroundings i.e. warmer/cooler grass/rock surrounding it; as others have said you are very unlikely to see the draught itself.