Author Topic: Returning to caving  (Read 2367 times)

Offline tobyk

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2021, 06:03:58 am »
I assumed that it must be PCR, just wasn't sure how fast they really can do them if they have to. I also assume that they will be doing dozens of tests a day on patients, and informing them all of a negative result is rather time-consuming. I also wasn't in my home town, which certainly complicated matters for all of us!

I work in hospital pathology in Haematology and Transfusion, but have to perform urgent covid testing out of hours when the Micro lot arn’t in. All hospital covid testing is PCR, but there are different ways of testing. Not including sample prep, transfer time to the lab etc the general on mass testing takes about 4 hours per test and costs about £7. The rapid PCR testing I perform takes about 1 hour, and is done on urgent cases (A&E, pre-ops etc)…costs £90 per test though!

Offline pwhole

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2021, 10:08:59 am »
That must have been mine then, as I was operated on within 12 hours of admission - luckily. Though at £90 I feel somewhat guilty, but I guess it's much cheaper than the whole surgical team having to self-isolate. And shows it is worth following the protocols - hands, face, space! :)

Offline Fulk

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2021, 10:22:41 am »
Quote
Though at £90 I feel somewhat guilty,

But compared with the cost of the operation, £90 was probably pretty trivia (?)l.

Offline pwhole

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2021, 10:31:40 am »
Indeed. I shudder to think how much I've cost them (us) overall. I'm also very aware how fortunate I was to be able to ring 999 in a strange city, and be in an emergency bed in two hours - and then stay for a week. In a month or two those 'spare' beds may no longer be available.

Offline Fulk

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2021, 10:43:07 am »
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I shudder to think how much I've cost them (us) overall.

Quite; I had open-heart surgery a few years ago, which must have set 'us' back several score thousand pounds (good job I wasn't in the States).

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2021, 11:49:31 am »
Quote
I shudder to think how much I've cost them (us) overall.

Quite; I had open-heart surgery a few years ago, which must have set 'us' back several score thousand pounds (good job I wasn't in the States).

All hail the NHS and all that work there  :bow:  :clap2: and that means ALL they all have a important role to play, a customer of mine once said " Im only a cleaner " I quickly reminded her if it wast for her the rest would stop very quick, I asked her not to put herself down anymore !    :halo:
I dont know where I am going, but will know where I am when I get there.

Offline sinker

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2021, 01:21:45 pm »

I'm also very aware how fortunate I was to be able to ring 999 in a strange city, and be in an emergency bed in two hours - and then stay for a week.


Totally agree.
I was admitted with Leptospirosis three weeks ago.
Referred at 10am by online out of hours GP, consultant rang me at 11.30, I went in at 1.30pm, all the tests and x-ray etc.
In and out in 48 hours, job done.  :clap2:



Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

Offline darren

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2021, 03:20:46 pm »
Sometimes it makes you wonder how the French and Germans work with a different system, oh and Spain.

Not saying the NHS is bad, but other viable systems do seem to exist. If the NHS is so superior why haven't other European countries copied it?



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Offline Speleofish

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2021, 04:11:39 pm »
I think you'd be slightly foolish to claim the NHS is better than the French or German systems. Most analyses suggest the French system is the best in the world. The German system can be outstanding (if you go to a Hochshule - ie university hospital) but some of the small Krankenhausen are less impressive. Both are far better resourced than the NHS (so have more beds and shorter/negligible waiting times) and both, particularly the Germans, offer really good rehabilitation which is something the NHS falls down on.

In favour of the NHS, it's one of the most cost-effective systems in the developed world (though this depends on running close to 100% occupancy which makes pandemics difficult) and care is probably more consistent between hospitals than in other hospitals. Since we've started to centralise some specialist services that were previously offered everywhere (trauma, vascular surgery etc) standards have risen significantly. However, resources were constrained even before Covid, made worse by the shortage of nursing and residential home care and the lack of facilities to deal with elderly patients with complex needs (so they ended up stuck in hospitals, which are fundamentally unsuited to care for them). 

In reality, increasing the NHS and social care budgets to overcome their many shortfalls would probably be less expensive overall than moving to a mixed private/public, insurance based system. The big problem with any private system of medicine is that the more procedures you undertake, the greater the income. This influences both doctors and management, can lead to inappropriate or excessive treatment and is very hard to police.


Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2021, 04:57:38 pm »
Sometimes it makes you wonder how the French and Germans work with a different system, oh and Spain.

Not saying the NHS is bad, but other viable systems do seem to exist. If the NHS is so superior why haven't other European countries copied it?





I lived in Germany for 4 years and trust me its not a patch on the NHS there waits ect and shortages of trained staff are just as bad if not worse than here
I dont know where I am going, but will know where I am when I get there.

Offline Speleofish

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2021, 05:01:59 pm »
Minor edit. Should read Care is probably more consistent between hospitals than in other countries

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2021, 05:05:16 pm »
Minor edit. Should read Care is probably more consistent between hospitals than in other countries

That's what it says  :doubt:
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Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2021, 05:38:44 pm »
Sometimes it makes you wonder how the French and Germans work with a different system, oh and Spain.

Not saying the NHS is bad, but other viable systems do seem to exist. If the NHS is so superior why haven't other European countries copied it?





There are a lot of things in Germany that dont " Qualify " for free treatment and care . Cant speak for France as I dont know , but what I do know as I have a friend over there in France is they pay a LOT more tax than we do to cover there care system.
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Offline darren

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2021, 06:08:32 pm »
Could you give us a couple of examples of the "lots of things"?

Who decides n the UK what is covered?
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Offline mikem

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2021, 06:12:35 pm »
Emergency treatment gets priority (& is generally excellent), other procedures are a bit more pot luck as to how long it will take to get done.

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2021, 06:36:42 pm »
Could you give us a couple of examples of the "lots of things"?

Go and have a tattoo done here it goes septic, you will get your free NHS treatment to put it right even if it goes terribly wrong . The " Krankenkasse " won't pay for the treatment you can get  treatment but you will have to pay . Oh hears another, fertility treatment I know here there are hoops to go through but after that its free or at least is it two or three attempts . One thing the French and Germans are considerably better at is football  :lol: but thats another story
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 07:02:45 pm by Paul Marvin »
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Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2021, 06:42:28 pm »
I think you'd be slightly foolish to claim the NHS is better than the French or German systems. Most analyses suggest the French system is the best in the world. The German system can be outstanding (if you go to a Hochshule - ie university hospital) but some of the small Krankenhausen are less impressive. Both are far better resourced than the NHS (so have more beds and shorter/negligible waiting times) and both, particularly the Germans, offer really good rehabilitation which is something the NHS falls down on.

In favour of the NHS, it's one of the most cost-effective systems in the developed world (though this depends on running close to 100% occupancy which makes pandemics difficult) and care is probably more consistent between hospitals than in other hospitals. Since we've started to centralise some specialist services that were previously offered everywhere (trauma, vascular surgery etc) standards have risen significantly. However, resources were constrained even before Covid, made worse by the shortage of nursing and residential home care and the lack of facilities to deal with elderly patients with complex needs (so they ended up stuck in hospitals, which are fundamentally unsuited to care for them). 

In reality, increasing the NHS and social care budgets to overcome their many shortfalls would probably be less expensive overall than moving to a mixed private/public, insurance based system. The big problem with any private system of medicine is that the more procedures you undertake, the greater the income. This influences both doctors and management, can lead to inappropriate or excessive treatment and is very hard to police.



A university hospital in Germany is called Universitätsklinik not Hochschule, Die Hochschule  in more higher education as a broad spectrum  :smartass:
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Offline Speleofish

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2021, 10:15:30 pm »
Fair point.

Offline Speleofish

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2021, 10:20:06 pm »
I confess, I'd always thought hochschule and university clinics to be synonymous in medicine (eg the Hochschule in Hanover) and we always referred to them as such in the hospitals where I worked. I'm happy to be corrected.

However, semantics aside, the underlying point remains. The best hospitals in Germany are very, very good. The worst are much less so. The difference in the UK is less marked.

Offline pwhole

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2021, 10:59:18 pm »
I got the feeling, from watching my ward for a couple of days, that they were understaffed, though it's difficult to generalise from one experience - but later confirmed to me by a nurse when she asked me to help her out with another patient (by now I was on my feet and becoming useful, especially picking up litter). She said it was mostly illness, though what I don't know - most of these conversations are snatched fragments rather than proper chats. Also they need to maintain a certain amount of staff/patient separation and confidentiality, so I was trying not to sound too much like Colombo, but I suspect exhaustion might be a good start. Their stamina and cheerfulness was amazing to see, no matter what was happening.

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2021, 08:08:34 am »
I confess, I'd always thought hochschule and university clinics to be synonymous in medicine (eg the Hochschule in Hanover) and we always referred to them as such in the hospitals where I worked. I'm happy to be corrected.

However, semantics aside, the underlying point remains. The best hospitals in Germany are very, very good. The worst are much less so. The difference in the UK is less marked.
 

 :thumbsup:
I dont know where I am going, but will know where I am when I get there.

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Returning to caving
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2021, 08:11:26 am »
 :thumbsup:
I got the feeling, from watching my ward for a couple of days, that they were understaffed, though it's difficult to generalise from one experience - but later confirmed to me by a nurse when she asked me to help her out with another patient (by now I was on my feet and becoming useful, especially picking up litter). She said it was mostly illness, though what I don't know - most of these conversations are snatched fragments rather than proper chats. Also they need to maintain a certain amount of staff/patient separation and confidentiality, so I was trying not to sound too much like Colombo, but I suspect exhaustion might be a good start. Their stamina and cheerfulness was amazing to see, no matter what was happening.

You have it all summed up there buddy  :thumbsup:. People are to easy to forget that the staff are human beings as well they get incredibly tired and have emotions to , my wife comes home some mornings in tears after wat she has witnessed on a shift.
I dont know where I am going, but will know where I am when I get there.

 

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