Author Topic: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism  (Read 2374 times)

Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2021, 07:16:38 pm »
I have no idea what drill music is though.
I believe it's an Elton John song - “Makita”.
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Offline Mrs Trellis

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2021, 07:19:22 pm »
"Classical" music forms only a small part of the Proms - there are far more genres performed including new commissions as occurred at the Last Night as happens every year. I don't really understand why someone waving a flag is labelled a fascist - or does that only apply to English natives?
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Offline ChrisJC

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2021, 07:21:08 pm »
....  I don't really understand why someone waving a flag is labelled a fascist.

There's some rather simplistic conclusions being made here,

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Offline Fishes

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2021, 07:30:19 pm »
I don't really understand why someone waving a flag is labelled a fascist - or does that only apply to English natives?

I'm not sure that anyone here has labelled all  those who wave flags as fascist. Many fascists are flag wavers though.

Offline Mrs Trellis

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2021, 07:33:24 pm »
Quote from: Fishes
I'm not sure that anyone here has labelled all  those who wave flags as fascist. Many fascists are flag wavers though.

...and many non fascists are flag wavers.
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Online RobinGriffiths

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2021, 08:23:14 pm »
There was a detached house (maybe still there) down a quiet lane near Crowland in the Fens that I used to drive past quite regularly. It was surrounded by an eight foot wooden fence, with similar gate which was adorned with a pro Brexit slogan. Poking up from behind the gate was a 15 foot white flagpole with a St George's flag fluttering on it.

I often wondered what the world view of the people who lived there were. Probably just a nice couple, but it did look a bit 'what's going on there then?' when you drove past.

Online pwhole

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2021, 10:39:03 pm »
Nobody disliking the 'patriotic evening' actually called the audience anything at all - in fact I was quite careful not to, for obvious reasons. My objections were to the predictable nature of the event, not of the people participating. Nor was anyone called racist, fascist, National Front members or anything else. All those terms were offered by the complainants as things we might write, if we were someone else entirely.

Offline Keris82

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2021, 07:06:37 am »
I just tuned in the telly to watch the news, and caught the last few minutes of the last night of the proms; while the orchestra and singers were well separated, the audience (‘prommers’) seemed to be crammed in like sardines in a tin; another ‘super-spreader event’, or ‘get real, we gotta live with it’?

(Incidentally, and off-topic – am I alone in thinking that all the flag-waving bullshit, the pure arrogance of 'God who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet' etc. is, to put it mildly, inappropriate in the UK of today?)

You have to show proof of double vaccine before they will let you in. Even under 18s have to show proof of negative lateral flow test. The Royal Albert Hall has lost millions in revenue in the last year and even the government grant isn't enough to keep it running. So they have to get as many sales back as possible now or it could be very bad for the hall if they were forced with closure. I know this because I issue tickets through my company where we have a private box

Offline Fulk

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2021, 12:10:40 pm »
Thanks for clarifying that, Keris.

Offline kay

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2021, 10:53:21 pm »
So, sinker, what do you make of the following 5 words:

                                          'GOD  WHO  MADE  THEE MIGHTY'?

I obviously don't know what the writer had in mind when he or she (probalby the former) wrote them, but the inference is  that the British Empire was somehow ordained by god.

If that's not arrogant bullshit, then what it it?

Arrogant bullshit, but Isn't it the sort of stuff many countries have in their national anthems? Eg

Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.

From the southern seas to the polar edge/Our forests and fields are spread out./You are the only one in the world! You are the only one -
the native land so kept by God!

Thank thy God, Whose power/Willed and wrought the land's salvation/In her darkest hour.

We knew thee of old,/O, divinely restored,/By the lights of thine eyes,/And the light of thy Sword.//To arms, citizens!/Form your battalions/Let’s march, let’s march/That their impure blood/Should water our fields.

Offline mudman

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2021, 09:33:53 am »
So, sinker, what do you make of the following 5 words:

                                          'GOD  WHO  MADE  THEE MIGHTY'?

I obviously don't know what the writer had in mind when he or she (probalby the former) wrote them, but the inference is  that the British Empire was somehow ordained by god.

If that's not arrogant bullshit, then what it it?

Arrogant bullshit, but Isn't it the sort of stuff many countries have in their national anthems? Eg

Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.

From the southern seas to the polar edge/Our forests and fields are spread out./You are the only one in the world! You are the only one -
the native land so kept by God!

Thank thy God, Whose power/Willed and wrought the land's salvation/In her darkest hour.

We knew thee of old,/O, divinely restored,/By the lights of thine eyes,/And the light of thy Sword.//To arms, citizens!/Form your battalions/Let’s march, let’s march/That their impure blood/Should water our fields.

Yep, why are select groups of words pulled out of the original context and held up as examples of how bad people were without considering the original context?
Those five words should  be put back into the context of the song if you wish to understand what they are saying. The line is 'God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet' and when you can see the whole line, you realise that the singer isn't making some statement about being the chosen of God but are exhorting God to grant greater power than that already given. The song is jingoistic, proudful and boastful but it isn't suggesting divine provenance for the people of Britain.

Offline sinker

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2021, 09:45:09 am »


Yep, why are select groups of words pulled out of the original context and held up as examples of how bad people were without considering the original context?
Those five words should  be put back into the context of the song if you wish to understand what they are saying. The line is 'God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet' and when you can see the whole line, you realise that the singer isn't making some statement about being the chosen of God but are exhorting God to grant greater power than that already given. The song is jingoistic, proudful and boastful but it isn't suggesting divine provenance for the people of Britain.


Common sense, thank you, agree!

It's easy to go back 120 years into the past and put a spin on the context; people, the country and the whole world were very different then. Meanings and contexts get missed up and lost.
Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

Offline Fishes

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2021, 11:47:42 am »
Many things that were acceptable 120 years ago are thankfully no longer accepted. For the most part I think that is a good thing and I don't think the British Empire is anything to be proud of.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2021, 01:43:29 pm »
The British Empire was a small part on the journey that has taken human civilisation from animals to the luxurious lifestyles we all enjoy today. It cannot be unpicked from that journey. It cannot be changed; trying to retrospectively edit it is just pointless.

I prefer to focus on the good things that have come from history rather than fretting about the bad things that can't be changed and probably weren't even bad back then.

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Offline Tomferry

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2021, 03:20:26 pm »
I am proud to be British

Offline Speleofish

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2021, 04:39:43 pm »
I think you have to view the British Empire in the context of the times, when all the major European countries were competing for land, trade and power.  Had there not been a British Empire, there would have been a French, Dutch, Austrian or Russian one.

Without the incentive of an empire to maintain a powerful navy, you could argue that we would have been poorly placed to maintain our own independence and would probably have spent much of the nineteenth century speaking French.

Unquestionably, the British did some unforgiveable things whilst building and maintaining the empire, as did all the other imperial powers when building theirs. These should be acknowledged and it would probably be appropriate to apologise for them (even though such apologies often sound false). Perhaps we should be much less proud of our empire than our grandparents were. That doesn't mean we should be totally ashamed.

Offline Fishes

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2021, 04:51:27 pm »
I do view the British Empire in the context of the times and know that other countries also did terrible things. We really need to move on and put those behind us though, rather constantly looking backwards and celebrating our long lost and morally questionable Empire.

Offline aardgoose

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2021, 05:23:55 pm »
Quote
It cannot be changed; trying to retrospectively edit it is just pointless.

History is always being edited, events are reevaluated, new evidence is discovered or considered after previous generations have ignored it. That is what historians do.

The following is a badly concealed attempt to edit history..
 
Quote
I prefer to focus on the good things that have come from history.

eg. 'focus on the good things' = 'lets brush all the bad things under the carpet'. The typical fragile "anti-woke" attitude of sticking ones fingers in ones ears when something unpleasant is discovered.

And another attempt to edit history.  Lets redefine what is considered bad, because it happened a long time ago, or in another country, or happened to people you considered lesser or deserving of poor treatment. Most things seen as bad now, were widely seen as bad then, especially to those exploited.

Quote
bad things that can't be changed and probably weren't even bad back then

What you don't like is that the edits made to history to whitewash the past, are now being exposed. All those comforting redactions being removed, that reveal the history that you use to prop up your self esteem isn't something to boast about. You want to cling to the child friendly, sanitised, indeed highly edited history of valiant little England against the big bad world.

And what does being proud of being 'British' even mean?  You didn't do anything to achieve being British. It is purely the circumstances you were born into. You didn't create Britain either. How can you be proud of being something that you had no part in making?

Being proud of being British appears to be more about taking credit for the actions of past 'heroes', which is why, when the less pleasant actions of said 'heroes' are highlighted, too many people think they themselves are being attacked, and lash out. I don't have heroes. Too many 'Great Men' have great flaws.


 






Offline sinker

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2021, 05:59:43 pm »
Quote
It cannot be changed; trying to retrospectively edit it is just pointless.

History is always being edited, events are reevaluated, new evidence is discovered or considered after previous generations have ignored it. That is what historians do.

The following is a badly concealed attempt to edit history..
 
Quote
I prefer to focus on the good things that have come from history.

eg. 'focus on the good things' = 'lets brush all the bad things under the carpet'. The typical fragile "anti-woke" attitude of sticking ones fingers in ones ears when something unpleasant is discovered.

And another attempt to edit history.  Lets redefine what is considered bad, because it happened a long time ago, or in another country, or happened to people you considered lesser or deserving of poor treatment. Most things seen as bad now, were widely seen as bad then, especially to those exploited.

Quote
bad things that can't be changed and probably weren't even bad back then

What you don't like is that the edits made to history to whitewash the past, are now being exposed. All those comforting redactions being removed, that reveal the history that you use to prop up your self esteem isn't something to boast about. You want to cling to the child friendly, sanitised, indeed highly edited history of valiant little England against the big bad world.

And what does being proud of being 'British' even mean?  You didn't do anything to achieve being British. It is purely the circumstances you were born into. You didn't create Britain either. How can you be proud of being something that you had no part in making?

Being proud of being British appears to be more about taking credit for the actions of past 'heroes', which is why, when the less pleasant actions of said 'heroes' are highlighted, too many people think they themselves are being attacked, and lash out. I don't have heroes. Too many 'Great Men' have great flaws.

We have a winner....what a cynical unpleasant view of the world you have.  :(
I can't even be bothered to argue back; pointless.

Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

Offline Fulk

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2021, 07:32:21 pm »
Hi mudman, I come in peace, I’m not trying to stir up yet more controversy. I’m simply trying to seek clarification of your remarks:

Quote
The line is 'God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet' and when you can see the whole line, you realise that the singer isn't making some statement about being the chosen of God but are exhorting God to grant greater power than that already given. The song is jingoistic, proudful and boastful but it isn't suggesting divine provenance for the people of Britain.

To me, it seems quite unequivocal that ‘God, who made thee mighty’ is claiming that god made Britain powerful, and I genuinely can’t see any other interpretation of those words. Similarly ‘Make thee mightier yet’ is a supplication to the said god to enhance the power of the British empire.

I daresay that, in the context of the time in which these words were written, a lot of people actually believed them.

Offline sinker

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2021, 07:43:37 pm »

To me, it seems quite unequivocal that ‘God, who made thee mighty’ is claiming that god made Britain powerful, and I genuinely can’t see any other interpretation of those words. Similarly ‘Make thee mightier yet’ is a supplication to the said god to enhance the power of the British empire.


Without a doubt that is how it was intended: "Wider still and wider / shall thy bounds be set".
Push your boundaries (borders) across continents. Expand the Empire.

Doesn't apply now, neither does the sentiment of world domination.
So we still sing the same songs but with different meaning; gives a sense of pride in the Britain of today.
We are all intelligent enough to take out of it what we want but to leave the rest of it in the past.
We're not denying it or glossing over it. We are moving on.
Use it as a reminder of what we are now and what we could be, not what we once were.


 
Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

Offline Fulk

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2021, 07:55:26 pm »
Makes sense, sinker; thanks.

Offline Fishes

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2021, 07:59:43 pm »
We are moving on.

Really? Then you should have no problem with those who think this embrace of the Empire is no longer appropriate.

Would you still feel the same way if Germans were singing Sieg Heil Viktoria or giving Nazi salutes?

Offline aardgoose

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2021, 08:00:23 pm »
Quote
We have a winner....what a cynical unpleasant view of the world you have.  :(
I can't even be bothered to argue back; pointless.

We have a "prime minister" who relies on the votes of the racists, misogynists, homophobes and the members of the Unity Mitford Appreciation Society, the anti-woke if you will, for his power, who came to power on the back of lies and fraud, a man who has more in common with William Joyce than Winston Churchill. If you can't see the danger there, I can't help you.


Offline sinker

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Re: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2021, 08:24:34 pm »
We are moving on.

Really? Then you should have no problem with those who think this embrace of the Empire is no longer appropriate.

Would you still feel the same way if Germans were singing Sieg Heil Viktoria or giving Nazi salutes?

Who's embracing a long-dead Empire? We're embracing the Britain of today.
If i walked around punching a few foreigners in the face or pretending to shoot a few Boers or Zulus that would be as blasphemous and inexcusable as giving a Nazi salute.
And you are unspeakable for even comparing the singing of 'Land Of Hope And Glory' at the 'Last Night Of The Proms' to Germans giving Nazi salutes.
I can't be tho only one to think that.

Now I'm a left-leaning liberal and support freedom of opinion and speech but even I'm concerned that this thread has gone too far. Several steps too far.
Nice move, trying to be clever. Doesn't suit you I'm afraid.

Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

 

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