Author Topic: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct  (Read 2642 times)

Offline Judi Durber

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Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« on: May 28, 2021, 12:13:28 pm »
The woodland Trust are asking for donations to buy 550 acres at Snaizeholme "and create vibrant new native woodland for wildlife and people."

What do the locals think of this? 

Is covering the moors with trees again a good or bad thing for the caving environment?

https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/support-us/give/appeals/snaizeholme/

https://www.streetmap.co.uk/map?x=383500&y=486500&z=120&sv=Snaizeholme&st=3&tl=Map+of+Snaizeholme,+North+Yorkshire&searchp=ids&mapp=map
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Offline Tomferry

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2021, 12:35:53 pm »
3,5 million is a big target ! Is their any mines in the  proposed “woodland” anyone  is aware of wondering if their is would we be able to gain access agreements ?  Sorry not familiar with the area but I am a large tree / nature lover

Offline Fishes

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2021, 12:49:48 pm »
I'm not a local but think this is a great idea.

I don't see any downsides for the caves, and it could help reduce flash flooding. Its just turning the moors back to what they used to be before the trees were chopped down and they were grazed by sheep.

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2021, 12:50:21 pm »
I'm not sure there is much in the way of caves in this area.  However, it is famous for its red squirrels.  Forestry has logged a fair bit around here in recent years so it could be some of this land.  Plant away I say.

Offline PeteA

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2021, 01:47:15 pm »
On a point, Snaizeholme is a long way north and indeed is in Wddale much nearer to Hawes than the Ribblehead viaduct.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2021, 01:54:31 pm »
In principle, it seems like a reasonable idea.

However, how much 'managing' they need to do to return it to it's 'natural' state will be interesting. And whether they are able to leave it alone when it gets there, or whether they will have to perpetually fiddle around with it, thus rendering it just as man made as what we have now remains to be seen.

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Offline AR

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2021, 08:41:58 pm »
Heather moorland, if left unburnt and ungrazed, from my experience starts to see birches and scotch pines reappearing of their own accord within 10-20 years, oak and other slower-growing broadleaves will probably start to appear over time but I have no idea how long it would take to establish a relatively stable ecosystem that perpetuates without human interference. Thing is, you have to be prepared to leave these places to their own devices for much more than a human lifetime...
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Offline grahams

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2021, 09:17:51 am »
Mixed woodland at Low Green Field, Langstrothdale. This location is 9km south of Snaizeholme and at about the same elevation - 370m.
Over on the moors of Mallerstang, many acres of broad leaf woodland has been planted and large tracts of land have been fenced off, possibly for further planting. Expect big changes in the Dales over the coming years.
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Offline Jim MacPherson

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2021, 10:07:40 am »
I wonder if it's this parcel they are aiming to buy, roughly right place and size.  If so note the guide price, so some £3m for the reserve development costs.  I can't see another parcel up for sale although the piccy on the Woodland Trust blurb looks up to the head of the dale and they imply there is no/limited tree cover which isn't entirely correct. However the advertised land is adjacent to the existing (ancient?) mixed woodland where the red squirrel trial is, so would make sense.

https://www.robinjessop.co.uk/properties/550-acres-of-land-at-hawes


Regardless most of the value of upland land (hence market price) is via the CAP subsidies attached which will be gone soon enough and largely replaced by the current ELMS proposals which are less closely linked to acreage and agricultural production (or hectarage to be a bit more metrically correct).

Jim

Offline Andy Walsh

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2021, 09:13:43 pm »
Area fenced off in Easegill seems to have an effect as going down to Link Pot a few Rowen Trees have appeared on the south side of the hill that do not seem to have been'' planted'' some 2m high and look well
Incidentally a wood is doing well after 100 years to be a settled impressive mixed woodland large Oak etc +it looks after itself
However in 5- 10 years things look good as per the trees by the A65 near Ingleton

Offline 2xw

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2021, 09:08:54 am »
Planting trees on a lot of our moorland when it should be blanket bog (for example, the top of Ingleborough or Leck fell) would result in a somewhat cataclysmic carbon release to the environment, because trees lower the water table, increasing the aerobic layer and increasing decomposition. It would also result in a massive decline of drinking water quality (entailing an investment of £30-50m per treatment plant) for people in the Dales. Much better to restore blanket bog!

Happily tho the WT seem to have learnt from their recent mistakes - the Snaizeholme planting appears to be on lowland (ish) ex grazing grassland

Offline grahams

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2021, 11:32:05 am »
That's a huge development proposal covering over 2 square km. There are already two conifer plantations on the site (assuming they haven't been harvested). It appears that the whole of the eastern slopes of Ten End would be planted. The upper slopes consist of peat bog which is crossed by the superb bridleway which leads onto Cam High Road West.
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Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2021, 12:42:55 pm »
... should be blanket bog...

Why should it be a blanket bog?

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Offline 2xw

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2021, 06:44:28 pm »
... should be blanket bog...

Why should it be a blanket bog?

Chris.

Cos it was, and now it's degraded, which means it's currently releasing massive amounts of carbon and precursor chemicals that form carcinogens in our drinking water (increasing the cost of treating it)

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2021, 06:50:45 pm »
Strictly it "should" be the natural climax community for the area. If it's fenced off, so it's un-grazed, that will eventually be the result.

Offline Jim MacPherson

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2021, 06:53:44 pm »
Does anybody know whether the "holme" bit is from Norse as that would suggest a dry bit among otherwise rather soggy ground, Snaize presumably being the occupier of the land?

Jim

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2021, 09:09:11 pm »
... should be blanket bog...

Why should it be a blanket bog?

Chris.

Cos it was, and now it's degraded, which means it's currently releasing massive amounts of carbon and precursor chemicals that form carcinogens in our drinking water (increasing the cost of treating it)

I am interested in why you say that. Do you have any actual justification? Which time period are we rewinding the clock to?

As far as I know, post ice age, it became deciduous forest. Then neolithic man cleared all of the natural forest in England*, including the high ground in Yorkshire. It became blanket bog as a direct result of mans influence.

I am interested in evidence to the contrary.

Chris.

*Which does make this idea of 'ancient woodland' a load of old testicles.
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Offline 2xw

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2021, 10:03:43 pm »
Quote
I am interested in why you say that. Do you have any actual justification?

Yes, there's a great body of research on UK upland blanket bogs and their carbon stores - here's a reasonable explanation for laymen https://www.edgehill.ac.uk/geography/research/peatlands-the-carbon-cycle-and-climatic-change/
There's more info on the state of UK peatlands in the IUCNs report here:
https://www.iucn-uk-peatlandprogramme.org/sites/default/files/2019-11/COI%20State_of_UK_Peatlands.pdf

Quote
Which time period are we rewinding the clock to?

It depends on the specific location. Realistically they were probably at their best pre-medieval times but the real degradation of UK upland peats can probably be attributed to post-WWII land grants that encouraged draining with the misconceived aim of increasing available agricultural land. A driver of degradation in Scotland was reasonably large forestry operations that functioned as a tax avoidance scheme - you can blame Terry Wogan and Cliff Richard for that - it's now being fixed at enormous cost.

Quote
As far as I know, post ice age, it became a deciduous forest.

This is "Sherwood Syndrome" and it's a bit of a fantasy in my opinion. Paleo and pollen data aren't reliable IMO - no doubt there were plenty more trees than there are now, but I have many doubts that the uplands were forested over in a closed canopy. For one, a lot of mires were created in the North of England (above the line of the LGM) probably due to the deposition of impermeable boulder clays (Fenns Whixall and Bettisfield mosses, as well as Manchester's Moss Side, are examples of this - when I last cored there we didn't find any evidence of trees - it just went down about 6 meters to ancient undecomposed Juncus and other reeds/sedges, etc.). Secondly, when we core on upland moors on my sites we would expect to be prevented from doing so if they were covered in buried ancient tree stumps - but we don't. You can see moors that were ancient forests like the one to the west of Wigtwizzle nr Sheffield, but my sites in the Forest of Bowland, Mossdale, Nidderdale, and Moorhouse the poles just slide in until they hit bedrock. It's possible these places were forested by a sort of scrubby birch woodland (similar to the body woods you can see at Malham) but I wouldn't believe there were oaks up there. More here: https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/portal/files/8226165/Whitehouse_and_Smith_QSR_2010.pdf

Quote
Then neolithic man cleared all of the natural forests in England*, including the high ground in Yorkshire. It became blanket bog as a direct result of man's influence.

This might be the case but it's hard to believe for me. Some will point out that all of our mountains are lower than the European tree line but then we live in an oceanic and not continental climate. Certainly, grazing, quarrying, mining, peat cutting (which was way more widespread than previously thought pre-coal - see anywhere called "turbary"!) all have had a massive influence but did they clear fell such vast swathes of land (including the stumps?) - the entire UK population then was roughly similar to the current population of Derby. It's much more believable to me that patchy forests were felled and open spaces readily used for pasture.

But this might be beside the point: none of it has been "wild" or "natural" since humans arrived, and at any rate, what does "wild" or "natural" mean and why is it valuable? There's a good essay on this from William Cronon: https://www.williamcronon.net/writing/Trouble_with_Wilderness_Main.html

Whatever way blanket bog arrived, it is enormously effective at sucking carbon out of the atmosphere, but we have destroyed a lot of it in the past century and for our own sakes we should put it back (a lot of it wouldn't become natural if we abandoned it anyways, see Kinder and Bleaklow in the Peak) by drain/gulley blocking and grazing + burning cessation.

Quote
*Which does make this idea of 'ancient woodland' a load of old testicles.

The definition of ancient woodland is that it has persisted since 1600 in England and 1750 in Scotland (which is somewhat arbitrary like "deep peat"). Make of that what you will!


Hope you enjoyed my opinionated rant!

Offline kay

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2021, 08:43:28 am »

*Which does make this idea of 'ancient woodland' a load of old testicles.

“Ancient woodland” has nothing to do with Neolithic times. It means an area that has been woodland continuously since before a date a few hundred years ago. Ancient woodlands have built up a specialist animal and plant community which will be destroyed if the woodland is. Which is why “offsetting” should only be a last resort - a plantation of new trees is never a like for like replacement for ancient woodland.

On the other hand planting new trees, or excluding deer and sheep, in my opinion seems a sensible option for those areas that still have such typical woodland plants as wood anemone and bluebell.

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2021, 03:35:48 pm »
Driving up over Kingsdale Head towards Dent yeaterday, it look like a large area has been planted with trees since the last time I was there too. It does look to be "patchy" planting, though - so presumably being made to look "natural" by design?
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Offline Judi Durber

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2021, 02:48:51 pm »

This is on the advertising leaflet but does not appear to be on the web.

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Offline 2xw

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2021, 02:57:10 pm »

This is on the advertising leaflet but does not appear to be on the web.



This looks good if they plant trees up the cloughs. It'll keep any peat from sloughing off the edge of the fell above and benefit them too

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2021, 04:54:53 pm »

Hope you enjoyed my opinionated rant!

I did! I just regret I won't have time to read all of your references in the detail that they deserve. But you make your point very well which I like.

I think we are agreed that whatever way you look at it, this project is to replace one artificial landscape with another.

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Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2021, 04:58:03 pm »
“Ancient woodland” has nothing to do with Neolithic times. It means an area that has been woodland continuously since before a date a few hundred years ago.

Unfortunately, most lay-people think that ancient woodland has been in existence since the ice age. It is the wrong word, and very misleading. It is only when you investigate that you find such oxymorons as The New Forest being Ancient Woodland!

And it is emotively used to great effect by such political organisations as The Woodland Trust, which I think is very sad and turns me away from them.

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Offline alanw

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2021, 07:05:25 pm »
Another misconception is that "Ancient Woodland" is untouched by humans. I've spent many hours, as a leader of a Cambridge BTCV working party in Hayley Wood[1], wielding a bowsaw or billhook. Some of them were in the company of Oliver Rackham[2]. Coppicing the hazel on a 17 year cycle continued a centuries old tradition and maintained an environment for much rare flora and fauna. On one visit at dawn in spring, we heard a nightingale singing in the hazel we'd coppiced a few years earlier.

I'm now sad that despite a thorough search, my copy of Dr. Rackham's book "Ancient Woodland" seems to have gone missing in a house move.

[1] https://www.wildlifebcn.org/nature-reserves/hayley-wood
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Rackham

Offline NeilC

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2021, 09:05:11 am »
“Ancient woodland” has nothing to do with Neolithic times. It means an area that has been woodland continuously since before a date a few hundred years ago.

Unfortunately, most lay-people think that ancient woodland has been in existence since the ice age. It is the wrong word, and very misleading. It is only when you investigate that you find such oxymorons as The New Forest being Ancient Woodland!

And it is emotively used to great effect by such political organisations as The Woodland Trust, which I think is very sad and turns me away from them.

Chris.

Do you have any evidence that 'most lay-people think that ancient woodland has been in existence since the ice age'?  That's certainly not what the word 'ancient' means.  The Oxford online dictionary gives two definitions, one of which is 'very old; having existed for a very long time,' which suggests that its use in this context is perfectly appropriate.

And I think you are being somewhat unfair to the Woodland Trust.  They use emotive language because it is something they care deeply about and because they no doubt feel that the destruction of ancient woodland is a tragedy.  It's also a very effective campaigning tool if you want to encourage other people to care about the issue - much more so than simply appealing to people's reason (as we saw in the Brexit debate for example).   

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2021, 10:16:24 am »
Do you have any evidence that 'most lay-people think that ancient woodland has been in existence since the ice age'?  That's certainly not what the word 'ancient' means.  The Oxford online dictionary gives two definitions, one of which is 'very old; having existed for a very long time,' which suggests that its use in this context is perfectly appropriate.

And I think you are being somewhat unfair to the Woodland Trust.  They use emotive language because it is something they care deeply about and because they no doubt feel that the destruction of ancient woodland is a tragedy.  It's also a very effective campaigning tool if you want to encourage other people to care about the issue - much more so than simply appealing to people's reason (as we saw in the Brexit debate for example).

I don't have peer reviewed evidence, no. But I have specifically asked a few people when in the middle of a conversation how old they think ancient woodland is, and the answer has always been 'basically for ever'. When I point out that a couple of hundred years is enough, they are surprised. You should try it when the opportunity arises. And some of these people are subscribers to The Woodland Trust.

Certainly the Woodland Trust are effective at campaigning, but I feel they overstep the line between honest debate and using emotive language / lies to prey on peoples ignorance.

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Offline mikem

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2021, 12:25:32 pm »
"forever" can be any period longer than that person's lifetime (or a much shorter timeframe in the case of teenagers)

Offline AR

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2021, 02:32:52 pm »
... they overstep the line between honest debate and using emotive language / lies to prey on peoples ignorance.

When I saw that sentence, two words immediately sprang to my mind. The first was "Daily". The second was "Mail"...
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Offline NeilC

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2021, 03:29:59 pm »

Certainly the Woodland Trust are effective at campaigning, but I feel they overstep the line between honest debate and using emotive language / lies to prey on peoples ignorance.

Chris.

Do you have any specific examples?

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2021, 04:53:45 pm »

Do you have any specific examples?

Yes. There was a segment on the news a few weeks ago with a senior lady from The Woodland Trust. The presenter made a comment along the lines of 'HS2 is obviously cutting down a lot of trees that won't be replaced', to which the lady agreed and supported (I forget the exact words). But that is complete bollocks.

https://www.therailwayhub.co.uk/49807/hs2-set-to-reach-730000-planted-trees-milestone-by-spring-2021/

What she should have said was either 'I don't know if that is true or not', or 'that is not true - HS2 will plant far more trees than they cut down. We would prefer them not to be cut down in the first place but increasing the overall woodland cover is far better than doing nothing at all'.

So a few million viewers will take a negative view of HS2 because a lady with gravitas has just lied to them all to suit their political agenda.

It's thanks to cretins like that that HS2 is costing a million pounds a bloody meter!! They would have all of us living in caves if they could. Certainly they never would have allowed our civilisation to have reached the current point, what with transportation and housing and such like.

I'd be inclined to support them if they were concerned with planting trees, but as soon as you step into 'anti' territory, no thanks!

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Offline Speleofish

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2021, 05:55:08 pm »
It's one thing to plant lots of trees, it's another to replicate the diversity of plants (and animals) in the habitat you've disrupted. I assume (without knowing what I'm talking about) that one can import sufficient insects, fungi and plants to create an environment that will evolve into something resembling 'ancient woodland'. I'd be interested to know the real answer as I want to do something similar on a very small scale locally.

Offline mikem

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2021, 06:37:32 pm »
Well, a few hundred years down the line it'll be a suitable replacement, but something is better than nothing!

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2021, 06:57:52 pm »
I suppose you could innoculate sapling roots with mycorrhizal fungi spores to get a head start? Maybe they do that?

Offline mikem

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2021, 07:42:51 pm »
Britain is now thought to have been more parkland than woodland, as we had various large herbivores & browsers before humans arrived.

Offline NeilC

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2021, 08:27:22 pm »

Yes. There was a segment on the news a few weeks ago with a senior lady from The Woodland Trust. The presenter made a comment along the lines of 'HS2 is obviously cutting down a lot of trees that won't be replaced', to which the lady agreed and supported (I forget the exact words). But that is complete bollocks.

https://www.therailwayhub.co.uk/49807/hs2-set-to-reach-730000-planted-trees-milestone-by-spring-2021/

What she should have said was either 'I don't know if that is true or not', or 'that is not true - HS2 will plant far more trees than they cut down. We would prefer them not to be cut down in the first place but increasing the overall woodland cover is far better than doing nothing at all'.

So a few million viewers will take a negative view of HS2 because a lady with gravitas has just lied to them all to suit their political agenda.

It's thanks to cretins like that that HS2 is costing a million pounds a bloody meter!! They would have all of us living in caves if they could. Certainly they never would have allowed our civilisation to have reached the current point, what with transportation and housing and such like.

I'd be inclined to support them if they were concerned with planting trees, but as soon as you step into 'anti' territory, no thanks!

Chris.

Well I didn't see the piece in question, and by your own admission, you can't remember the exact words, but the Trust's website makes it very clear that it is the destruction of ancient woodland that it is opposed to, rather than HS2 per se (https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/protecting-trees-and-woods/campaign-with-us/hs2-rail-link/).  Indeed, the Government's own planning guidance describes ancient woodland as an 'irreplaceable habitat' (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ancient-woodland-and-veteran-trees-protection-surveys-licences).  (As an aside, the term 'ancient woodland' is a statutory designation, not merely an emotive term used by the WT and others to suit a political agenda.)  To state that HS2 will 'plant far more trees than they cut down' is an irrelevant straw man.

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2021, 09:48:59 pm »

Well I didn't see the piece in question, and by your own admission, you can't remember the exact words, but the Trust's website makes it very clear that it is the destruction of ancient woodland that it is opposed to, rather than HS2 per se (https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/protecting-trees-and-woods/campaign-with-us/hs2-rail-link/).  Indeed, the Government's own planning guidance describes ancient woodland as an 'irreplaceable habitat' (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ancient-woodland-and-veteran-trees-protection-surveys-licences).  (As an aside, the term 'ancient woodland' is a statutory designation, not merely an emotive term used by the WT and others to suit a political agenda.)  To state that HS2 will 'plant far more trees than they cut down' is an irrelevant straw man.

If an ancient woodland habitat is irreplaceable, why are there so many SSSI's on post industrial sites? You can't move for falling over some statuary designation on a piece of land that was a hive of industry 150 years ago.

You only have to go looking for old mines to see how nature rapidly takes over as soon as human beings leave it alone. Even without management plans and planting schemes!

Or when humans make something completely new like Rutland Water, no doubt an outrage of chopping down ancient forests, but now a haven for wildlife (since 1969)

So "To state that HS2 will 'plant far more trees than they cut down' is an irrelevant straw man." is not a straw man. Nature always comes back if left to its own devices.

More trees = more nature, in time.

Chris.
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Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2021, 11:23:50 pm »
What type of figure are you apportionating to 'in time' ? If it's of the order of hundreds of years, then the denizens of the original ecosystem are toast unless they have convenient islands to jump to. Post industrial sites generally start with scrub, brambles, rosebay willowherb, valerian, maybe buddleia if near ex railway lines, then probably birch, possibly ash next. Good for some insects, small mammals and birds, but it'll be nothing like, say an oak or beech woodland with rotten trunks, moss, ferns, lichen, fungi, slime moulds and the like. On the plus side, ash does rot like buggery.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2021, 07:16:55 am »
I'd go for 100-150 years. Which isn't long. Probably less in most cases.

Looking for old abandoned mines generally involves hacking through the most extraordinary plant growth.

Which leads me to the empirical conclusion that nature always wins, and nature always comes back very quickly as well. Certainly my experiences are at odds with the hyperbole you get of destruction and cataclysm etc when somebody wants to build something new.

Look at Chernobyl!, a wildlife haven in spite of the minor radiation issue.

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Offline mikem

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2021, 08:05:09 am »
Abandoned mine sites tend to be great for wildlife in the medium term, but often mature into something less productive because there are no large mammals tending the environment (like bison etc would have done after the ice age).

HS2 is so expensive because there's already far too much infrastructure in the SE, that it has to work around.

Offline alanw

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2021, 08:29:28 am »
Abandoned mine sites tend to be great for wildlife in the medium term, but often mature into something less productive because there are no large mammals tending the environment (like bison etc would have done after the ice age).

That reminds me of another regular task I did with the conservation volunteers. The Devil's Dyke[1] north of Cambridge is an SSSI and an SAC. It's chalk grassland, supporting, amongst other flora,  pasqueflowers. It used to be grazed by sheep, but that became uneconomical, it's over 11km long but only about 40m wide. We used to go and mow the banks (tricky on such a steep slope) and rake the grass into the ditch, to keep hawthorn, etc from growing and turning into scrubland.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Dyke,_Cambridgeshire

Offline kay

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2021, 08:40:18 am »

If an ancient woodland habitat is irreplaceable, why are there so many SSSI's on post industrial sites? You can't move for falling over some statuary designation on a piece of land that was a hive of industry 150 years ago.


Really?  ;D

 
Quote
Nature always comes back if left to its own devices.


“Nature” isn’t a single indivisible thing. It’s made up of millions of species, which are becoming extinct at a rate unknown since the demise of the dinosaurs, largely as a result of our activities.

By the way, you referred to the Woodland Trust as “political”. Is this on the basis that it is trying to improve some aspect of life? Isn’t this a rather wide definition of “political”?

Offline mikem

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2021, 08:46:36 am »
Really?  ;D
It does depend what part of the country you are in...

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2021, 09:44:03 am »
Looking for old abandoned mines generally involves hacking through the most extraordinary plant growth.

That'll be those brambles - a typical pioneer species.

Offline Jim MacPherson

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2021, 09:56:47 am »
Be a shame should the "pioneer" species end up being himalayan balsam and/or japanese knotweed for example.

And should the Woodland Trust want some (cheap) ash seedlings I can pretty well guarantee 50 of the little devils every year, they don't take this die-back fungus at all seriously in these here parts

Jim

Offline Judi Durber

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2021, 03:28:30 pm »

If an ancient woodland habitat is irreplaceable, why are there so many SSSI's on post industrial sites?


A site being designated as SSSI is complete separate from a piece of land being designated as "ancient woodland" although ancient woodland may also be an SSSI

Pridhamsleigh Cavern (and lots more caves) is SSSI which has nothing to do with the wood on the surface. https://designatedsites.naturalengland.org.uk/SiteDetail.aspx?SiteCode=S1001878&SiteName=pridhamsleigh&countyCode=&responsiblePerson=&SeaArea=&IFCAArea=

"Description and Reasons for Notification:
This is one of three networks of cave passages in separate limestone outcrops around
Buckfastleigh. Detailed study has shown that the three networks developed over the same
time-span during the late Pleistocene period of Geological history about 150,000 years ago.
Furthermore, stages in the development of the caves can be related to stages in the development
of the valley of the River Dart. Accumulations of debris washed into the caves during their
formation contain important fossil remains which give indication of the age of the caves. The
caves also contain important and spectacular mineral deposits.
Pridhamsleigh Caves are important as a site for the endemic crustacean Niphargus glennei
which is abundant in the cave waters. This animal is thought to be a pre-glacial relict."

Ancient woodland is defined by the Government as "It’s any area that’s been wooded continuously since at least 1600 AD. It includes:"   https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ancient-woodland-and-veteran-trees-protection-surveys-licences

" You cannot move an ancient woodland ecosystem because:
it’s not possible to replicate the same conditions at another site
it’s no longer an ancient woodland"


Ancient woodland is deemed to be irreplaceable because one of the things that happens in an ancient wood is the growth of fungus the largest "spanning an area of 3.5 square miles (2,200 acres; 9.1 km2). This organism is estimated to be some 8,000 years old and may weigh as much as 35,000 tons. If this colony is considered a single organism, it is the largest known organism in the world by area"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillaria_ostoyae#:~:text=A%20mushroom%20of%20this%20type,as%20much%20as%2035%2C000%20tons.
We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life waiting for us.

Offline alanw

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2021, 02:02:15 pm »
I'm now sad that despite a thorough search, my copy of Dr. Rackham's book "Ancient Woodland" seems to have gone missing in a house move.

And 5 days later, 4 years after they were packed away, two of his books have turned up (I'd misremembered what I had), hidden at the bottom of a box of 25mm slides.


Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2021, 11:49:59 am »
I'm not sure there is much in the way of caves in this area. 

I suspect the nearest cave may be the 33 m long Snaizeholme Pasture Cave. I only mention this because it doesn't appear in the most recent (1988) edition of Northern Caves Volume 1. The cave was found 10 years before the NC guide was published, however.

There's an article & survey in CPC Journal 5 (3) 1978 pages 350-352, together with a photograph of the entrance. Grid ref is SD836881, so not sure whether it'd be affected anyway.


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Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Snaizeholme - north of Ribblehead Viaduct
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2021, 06:24:30 pm »
The woodland Trust are asking for donations to buy 550 acres at Snaizeholme "and create vibrant new native woodland for wildlife and people."

What do the locals think of this? 

Is covering the moors with trees again a good or bad thing for the caving environment?

https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/support-us/give/appeals/snaizeholme/

https://www.streetmap.co.uk/map?x=383500&y=486500&z=120&sv=Snaizeholme&st=3&tl=Map+of+Snaizeholme,+North+Yorkshire&searchp=ids&mapp=map

Not local but know the area well, for me more trees the better there are too many cut down nowaday and not replaced.   :clap2: :thumbsup:
I dont know where I am going, but will know where I am when I get there.

 

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