Author Topic: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)  (Read 2790 times)

Offline JoshW

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 823
  • YSS, WSCC, BCA Youth & Development, BCA Group Rep
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2021, 06:13:57 pm »
Until what is essentially the governing body of the sport can pull it's members into line, it's not fit for purpose.

I would argue that the BCA is not and should not be a governing body. The BCA shouldn't be pulling it's members into line but rather changing its position to fall in line with the views of its members.

In order to be members of the association all members need to abide by the rules of the association, which are agreed by the membership and amended at AGM's with voting by the membership. This would imply that if the members aren't in line with the BCA's position, then those members are in a minority and the BCA's position represents the majority.

The beauty of an AGM is that people can suggest changes and the association constantly evolves and updates with changing views. My proposal for the AGM is to update the equality and diversity policy, there are some who may disagree with some of the changes (or even the existence of the policy), and it is utterly their right to vote against the proposal, however I imagine and hope that the majority will vote for the changes, reaffirming that the association represents the majority. If your actions are not in line with BCA's, then the BCA should have some sort of way of 'bringing it's members into line' for not abiding by the rules of the association.

just my tuppence worth  :coffee:

It's also possibly worth splitting this topic in two to keep the 'what is the BCA's remit' argument separate from the information specifically about the elections themselves.
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline Fishes

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 335
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2021, 06:51:09 pm »
[quote author=cavemanmike link=topic=28263.msg347651#msg347651 date=16277505
What about bca member clubs not allowing other bca member clubs access to sites, shouldn't bca intervene to make access more inclusive
[/quote]

Its an interesting question although I'm not aware of one member club preventing access of another.

Access is often controlled on behalf of the landowner by individuals, by clubs or regional organisations. This generally seems to work well and in the few cases where it doesn't then I think it is a matter that would be best resolved locally rather than at a national level.
 

Offline JoshW

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 823
  • YSS, WSCC, BCA Youth & Development, BCA Group Rep
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2021, 07:26:26 pm »
What about bca member clubs not allowing other bca member clubs access to sites, shouldn't bca intervene to make access more inclusive

Its an interesting question although I'm not aware of one member club preventing access of another.

Access is often controlled on behalf of the landowner by individuals, by clubs or regional organisations. This generally seems to work well and in the few cases where it doesn't then I think it is a matter that would be best resolved locally rather than at a national level.

or access controlling bodies, that are themselves member clubs of the BCA
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 07:38:43 pm by JoshW »
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline cavemanmike

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 780
  • ucet
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2021, 07:31:20 pm »
Try living in North Wales  :annoyed: :annoyed:
I could name names but I think you know who I mean :spank:

Offline NewStuff

  • Gobby McGobface
  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
  • www.dddwhcc.com
    • Deep Dark Dirty WetHoles
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2021, 08:04:04 pm »
changing its position to fall in line with the views of its members.
If you said the majority of it's members, sure. The issue lies when the small, vocal minority actively derail and hinder progress that has been clearly voted for and mandated by the majority of it's members. As it stands, the BCA is toothless and cannot do a damn thing about it. Until that changes, despite efforts from some very passionate and hardworking people, the BCA is not fit for purpose.
Its an interesting question although I'm not aware of one member club preventing access of another.
I also live in N.Wales. I don't have to worry about the things Mike does. I'll happily chuck out names, I've done it before, and my names mud as it is, they know I don't care what they think. Just for avoidance of doubt, I'm not a member of Mike's club, what I say is my own opinion and should not reflect upon them.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Cap'n Chris

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 12457
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2021, 08:33:58 pm »
As it stands, the BCA is toothless and cannot do a damn thing about it.

It will always be toothless; the only sanction(s) it can bring are to expel members; they will then simply continue caving independently. There is no national governing body and never can be for that reason alone.

Offline Fishes

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 335
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2021, 08:38:51 pm »
I don't live in North Wales but have caved there a few times and visited quite a few of its mines. I've never had an issue with other cavers/mine explorers preventing access but I have spent time getting to know the right people and treating them with respect rather than demanding access. Maybe I have been lucky with this, but its worked for me.

For BCA to be representative it cannot only represent the views the majority. It must also represent those whose views differ. This involves compromise and a lot of effort to bring people together rather than attacking people who see things differently.

Offline NewStuff

  • Gobby McGobface
  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
  • www.dddwhcc.com
    • Deep Dark Dirty WetHoles
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2021, 09:44:25 pm »
...but I have spent time getting to know the right people and treating them with respect rather than demanding access.

You think I and many others haven't tried that? You think Hostility is the go-to position? Take your implication and condescension and shove it. That's as polite as I get.
This is born out of frustration, there's only so much you can beat your head against a brick wall.

As for the "opinions who differ"... the negotiating route has been tried numerous times. You can't negotiate with people who have no intention of changing positions or compromising. That time has been and gone, and it';s not through lack of effort on many volunteers parts.

Permission? Wassat den?

Offline aricooperdavis

  • Global Moderator
  • forum star
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
  • Cornwall to Cumbria
    • Cooper-Davis.net
Re: Council Elections %u2013 Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2021, 10:33:36 am »
Moderator Comment Whilst the conversation has drifted slightly from the Council Elections I do think that the discussion of the purpose and purview of the BCA is interesting and valuable, particularly ahead of the AGM. Let's keep personal stuff out of it please - it would be a shame to see a good discussion sidetracked!
Edit: I've no idea how to post a "moderator message", but this is what the above is intended to be!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 09:11:56 pm by Badlad »

Offline Ian Ball

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1261
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2021, 11:15:04 am »
I agree with Badad,  if it is not right it should be changed rather than sticking with something wrong just because it is easier.

Is there any wriggling way a post with no one standing can be filled now?

Offline JoshW

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 823
  • YSS, WSCC, BCA Youth & Development, BCA Group Rep
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2021, 11:52:01 am »
I agree with Badad,  if it is not right it should be changed rather than sticking with something wrong just because it is easier.

Is there any wriggling way a post with no one standing can be filled now?

I believe that you can still apply for posts, the equivalent to 'standing from the floor' (or whatever the phrase is) at old face to face AGMs. one of the constitutional boffins might correct me here though.

The alternative would be that council can co-opt people into roles if required after the AGM. For some roles I would see this as a sensible options, however in my opinion if the individual/group representative roles aren't filled, I can't see the value in co-opting people for the sake of it. Council is already too large, and for the most part I don't see huge amounts of value added by individual/group members (aware that I am one myself and am running again, but would hope that my council activity would speak for itself).
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline paul

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4754
  • Orpheus CC, NPC
    • Orpheus Caving Club
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2021, 03:07:33 pm »
Edit: I've no idea how to post a "moderator message", but this is what the above is intended to be!


When you post or edit a message, click on the 'Preview' button to open the editor with text in it and the various text editing buttons (Bold, Italics, etc) and emoticons etc.. You should have a button with a yellow triangle and exclamation mark if you are a Moderator.


Select your text and then click this button and it should add the appropriate 'markdown' tags for a Moderator comment around the selected text.
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Offline JoshW

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 823
  • YSS, WSCC, BCA Youth & Development, BCA Group Rep
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2021, 08:02:50 pm »
I agree with Badad,  if it is not right it should be changed rather than sticking with something wrong just because it is easier.

Is there any wriggling way a post with no one standing can be filled now?

I believe that you can still apply for posts, the equivalent to 'standing from the floor' (or whatever the phrase is) at old face to face AGMs. one of the constitutional boffins might correct me here though.

The alternative would be that council can co-opt people into roles if required after the AGM. For some roles I would see this as a sensible options, however in my opinion if the individual/group representative roles aren't filled, I can't see the value in co-opting people for the sake of it. Council is already too large, and for the most part I don't see huge amounts of value added by individual/group members (aware that I am one myself and am running again, but would hope that my council activity would speak for itself).

knew I'd seen it somewhere.

In one of the later articles on the BCA website
https://british-caving.org.uk/agm-update/

you can still apply for the roles using the link within this article.
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline nearlywhite

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 419
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2021, 07:24:17 pm »
Please note that the agenda has been released:
https://british-caving.org.uk/agm-agenda/

The draft minutes for the previous AGM have also been made available.

Note that there is a further proposal going to the AGM regarding BCA anchor policy which was not previously listed.

Offline Badlad

  • Administrator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2338
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2021, 09:05:25 am »
The draft minutes of the last AGM don't download and show as an error for me.  The AGM agenda works fine.

I'd like to see a matching statement from Rostam in the agenda to compare with the one published for the incumbent chair. 

Offline aricooperdavis

  • Global Moderator
  • forum star
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
  • Cornwall to Cumbria
    • Cooper-Davis.net
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2021, 09:13:32 am »
The draft minutes of the last AGM don't download and show as an error for me.  The AGM agenda works fine.

Thanks for the heads up, I've now fixed this :thumbsup:

Offline nearlywhite

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 419
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2021, 09:15:21 pm »
The draft minutes of the last AGM don't download and show as an error for me.  The AGM agenda works fine.

I'd like to see a matching statement from Rostam in the agenda to compare with the one published for the incumbent chair.

It's on the website now

https://british-caving.org.uk/hustings-for-bca-chair/

I had assumed that the election statements were going out on the website and in the reports section and I only found out the day before the AGM was due to go out on night shifts. The person I do feel sorry for is Josh who had his statement done ages ago and filled it in on the application form prior to the nomination deadline. I'm making a page with all the candidates and proposals going for election.

Here is the statement from that news article on the website:

My name’s Rostam and I’ve been a caver for 12 years, starting with Sheffield University (SUSS) and am now a member of the Wealden, the BEC and UCET. I’ve been lucky enough to travel all over the world and have 15 or so expeditions under my belt. Caving invested in me early, taught me skills and has brought me many lifelong friends – cavers are some of the most eccentric adventurous people and I have so many stories as a result. I’m passionate about growing this community as I’d like to give more people the opportunity to experience what I’ve experienced.

I started out volunteering as Treasurer for SUSS, I moved the club over to online banking and built up a healthy surplus over 3 years. I continued as Chair of the club and with a bit of innovation led the club to a bumper year of recruitment despite starting the year with minimal leaders and drivers. I took this experience in leading, training and organising to Northern CHECC, and then joined BCA as Youth and Development Officer. I stayed in this post for 5 years, first learning how the BCA works and realising that we needed more than just one person representing ‘Youth Caving’ and set it up as a group bringing in many people. This led to working closely with scout caving, CHECC and a body of experienced volunteers shielded from the chaos and time wasting of council.

We learned from each other and achieved a lot; we represented university groups in discussions with unions, started 4 new student caving clubs, set up the emergency kit loan system, set up a bureaucratic service to write constitutions and other paperwork, set up the child safeguarding officer, made DBS checks for voluntary work for BCA members free, made BCA membership free for under 18s, started an at cost procurement scheme for BCA, took on a discrimination case against under 18s, procured legal advice and safeguarded many access agreements protecting under 18 access in the process.

I have spent the last year in Publications and Information where; I authored the demographics report, developed the proofreading service, developed a data gathering and interpretation service with input from professional statisticians, regularly sought feedback on BCA services, created a clear publication pathway and standard formatting, handled requests from the media and built a modern social media interface.
In addition to this I stepped in to provide support to the Secretary and Chair commiting roughly 2 hours a week to giving advice, doing the constitutional/operations legwork to work out what they should be doing and helped draft agendas and proposals in an effective way. I implemented many of the simplifying things that Phil Rowsell tried to drive – like the online submission of reports, proposals and nominations. I also wrote terms of reference that constituted the new IT working group and successfully kept it apolitical. I drafted the covid recovery plan which has yet to be fully implemented.

I think I would make a good chair as I know how the BCA works, how the grassroots volunteering works and I would prioritise things that will bring new people into the sport and keep the buildings, charities and clubs full of people.

To put it more exactly I would:

– Adopt and push the Covid Recovery plan
– Increase transparency by ensuring documents are published ahead of deadlines, and record votes on clear proposals so that members know which way their representatives voted
– Actively recruit more volunteers for working groups and delegate more things from council- Shrink the size of council by giving time for what will be controversial proposals to be worked through by affected parties
– Order agendas through priority of issue importance and cut down the frequency and bulk of reports to allow a manageable workload for Council
– Automate secretarial tasks and integrate this with the rewrite of the Manual of Operations
– Be proactive in identifying roadblocks for BCA volunteers and adopting a ‘how to get it done approach’ rather than a ‘delay it till next time’ one. Change the meeting to meeting culture and just focus on groups operating continuously.
– Attend meetings of various member bodies and listen.
– Wear a BCA T-shirt (for some of the time) at caving huts at weekends so that people can chat to me if they want to, I also promise not to bring the BCA into disrepute

Offline JoshW

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 823
  • YSS, WSCC, BCA Youth & Development, BCA Group Rep
Re: Council Elections – Deadline Monday 26th July (Midnight)
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2021, 04:09:40 pm »

I had assumed that the election statements were going out on the website and in the reports section and I only found out the day before the AGM was due to go out on night shifts. The person I do feel sorry for is Josh who had his statement done ages ago and filled it in on the application form prior to the nomination deadline. I'm making a page with all the candidates and proposals going for election.

Haha, appreciate the pity! I was wondering where my statement would end up. Likewise I wonder if Allan has one that hasn't had a chance to be posted anywhere. I don't want it to become that just because I'm the only one who has applied for a post that I automatically get it. There is the option to vote against me, and those who disagree with my actions/previous votes*/politics/or just me in general, I would urge to a) reach out to me and ask why I have done certain things, I'm always open to critique and b) if I can't explain adequately why I've not behaved in a certain way (or apologised for cocking up), then please do vote against me.

*one of the big reasons I pushed for council minutes to show named voting

– Wear a BCA T-shirt (for some of the time) at caving huts at weekends so that people can chat to me if they want to, I also promise not to bring the BCA into disrepute

I actually love this as an idea. For any reddit fiends out there I see it similar to an AMA, and I could see long term this being a good idea for any officers to have a t-shirt that they can wear with their role on so that any BCA member (or otherwise) can fire any relevant (or wider) questions to a member of council.

I'm big on openness and accountability (in case you've missed my posts previously), and this would be a great step towards it IMO.
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

 

Main Menu

Forum Home Help Search
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal