UK Caving

WHERE THE CAVES ARE - The Caving Regions => Peak District => Topic started by: danthecavingman on July 11, 2005, 01:18:30 pm

Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: danthecavingman on July 11, 2005, 01:18:30 pm
I'm planning a trip down Carlswark on Wednesday, intending to venture into the dynamite series. Anyone else been there? What's it like and does it deserve Derbyshire Grade V? Tight? Muddy? Pretty?

I also heard a rumour about an obscure entrance that leads straight into the Dynamite series. Called Flower Pot entrance or something? Anyone know where it is and if it's manageable by normal sized people?

Cheers,

Dan.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: danthecavingman on July 12, 2005, 11:33:20 am
No one been?

No worries, I will post a description if it's wanted after my visit tomorrow. I was hoping someone knew about the other entrance.

Dan.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: bubba on July 12, 2005, 11:35:25 am
Dynamite is a good trip but I've not been in it (apart from getting stuck coming back through the first squeeze last year :oops: ) for years, and I was much slimmer then. I remember it being tight and awkward, but not horrendous by any means. There's some interesting old mine passage but didn't see any formations whatsoever.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on July 12, 2005, 12:43:22 pm
Went quite a way a few years back.

Basically a series of parallel rifts joined by tight crawls/squeezes at floor level.

I got through porth crawl but my mate got well stuck in it so we had to turn round at that point (dont think there was much further to go)

Other entrance?? I think the end is close to surface but I was unaware of another entrance.

Mark'll know. (or try emailing john beck)
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Cave_Troll on July 12, 2005, 12:54:40 pm
or Keith
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Dave H on July 12, 2005, 03:11:58 pm
There is a third entrance in the grounds of the Old People's Home.  My mate Robin and I spent quite a while talking with the new owner a couple of years ago (well he was new then) and he seemed pretty amenable to visits so long as you asked first (in normal clothes - we don't want to frighten the coffin dodgers now!) The entrance was very overgrown and didn't look like it had been touched for years. We never did get back to have a proper look with gear. :cry:
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 12, 2005, 03:58:42 pm
Quote from: "danthecavingman"


I also heard a rumour about an obscure entrance that leads straight into the Dynamite series. Called Flower Pot entrance or something? Anyone know where it is and if it's manageable by normal sized people?



Hi Dan,

Yes, Flower Pot does exist, we dug it open about twelve years ago, and yes, it does go directly into Dynamite Series, emerging in Falls Chamber. To find it, go up the hill from the the Junction on the main road,past the sub-station, and on the left further up is a parking place below a small cliff. Flower pot is on the opposite side of the road (right going uphill), about 15 feet from the road, 10 feet above road level, though you'll have to scabble around to find it under leaves I guess.

It has 4 blue barrels as the entrance. These have been squashed over time, but the way may still be open.

The route is fairly obvious, with several flat out but not too horrific squeezes into Big Dig, including a sit down dog-leg thing...

The hard part of Dynamite Series (!) (and the reason for the entrance) is Porth Crawl, which is frighteningly tight. I bottled it, and have never passed it, but beyond (apparently) is pristine passage and some potential digs. Very few people have been there.

We intended to tackle the digs, but sorta lost interest......

There was another entrance to Carlswark called "Deep Shaft", up on the hill, but that was blocked when Big Dig was passed in the 70's

AndyF
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 12, 2005, 04:01:56 pm
Quote from: "Dave H"
There is a third entrance in the grounds of the Old People's Home.  


I think you mean Eyam Dale House Cave. It doesn't connect to Carlswark, but is probably part of the same system. It's quite a good trip, with an impressive rift at the end.

A dig at the end MAY connect to Carlswark Dynamite series if it were pushed....
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Dave H on July 12, 2005, 04:10:26 pm
:worthy: Thanks AndyF - maybe the caver who was encouraging us so much to go and have a look at it, had a hidden agenda and expected us to dig it for him!
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 12, 2005, 04:25:12 pm
Hi Dave,

Eyam Dale House Cave is a very worthwhile trip, probably the best in Stoney, but IFTM that the entrance (a mine shaft) had a broken sewer pipe leaking into it, affecting the shaft itself.   :shock:  Eek!


The dig was a silted crawl that had been dug for a hundred feet or so, and could be dug further by a keen team with some drag trays, making a fairly hard through trip if the connection could be gained...

http://www.eldon.org.uk/reports.html#eyamdale
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: mudmonkey on July 12, 2005, 05:38:57 pm
Never noticed any sewage - done a couple of trips in Eyam Dale House over the last couple of years.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: danthecavingman on July 12, 2005, 08:52:21 pm
Just been on the phone to John Beck,

He reckons that the bottom of the Flower Pot entrance ran in a while ago and that it is no longer accessible :( . Apparently the barrels are quite tight and if it's blocked at the bottom then getting back out could be a nightmare!  :twisted: Dug out by the Keyhole Caving Club - was that you then Andy?

John also kept repeating the phrase "very tight" in regard to the Dynamite Series and particularly Porth Crawl. He did add that Mark Noble got through by being very determined while other smaller cavers refused it. I guess it's time to see how determined I am..... :cry:

From what John said there are some good leads beyond Porth Crawl, not just a possible connection with EDHC but also a big natural passage choked in both directions - sounds like potential to me. Not being the thinnest of cavers I don't imagine I'll get to the end but it sounds intriguing. I can only imagine that it's hard work getting to these leads otherwise they would have been pushed before..... :roll:
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Mark on July 13, 2005, 06:37:12 am
Quote from: "danthecavingman"

He did add that Mark Noble got through by being very determined while other smaller cavers refused it.


For determined read thin, I doubt if I would get any where near it now,

We dug through Porth crawl in 1972 there are quite a few leads left in there.

The old man has stacked rock everywhere filling up some quite large phreatic passages

"Pristine and pretty" ?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: bubba on July 13, 2005, 09:07:55 am
The furthest I got into it was into a room where a very small circular tube-like passage in the floor led off for what appeared to be some way. It looked nasty tight.  There were lots of digging buckets and stuff lying about.

This would have been sometime in the late 80's - was I looking at Porth Crawl?
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 13, 2005, 09:36:30 am
Quote from: "mudmonkey"
Never noticed any sewage - done a couple of trips in Eyam Dale House over the last couple of years.


it may be fixed now, this was about 12 years ago...
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 13, 2005, 09:46:36 am
Quote from: "bubba"
The furthest I got into it was into a room where a very small circular passage in the floor led off for what appeared to be some way. There were lots of digging buckets and stuff lying about.

This would have been sometime in the late 80's - was I looking at Porth Crawl?


No I don't think so. There was a duck, which the buckets were used to bail, before the junction where the route to Falls Chamber splits off. After Flower Pot was opened, the increased draught seemed to leave the duck dry most of the time.

The barrels in Flower Pot did get a bit squashed, but if you throw a ladder or knotted rope down and take a look, I don't think you'd have a nightmare climbing back out. At the bottom, you slide down a slope into a short length of solid mine level, then duck back under to reach Falls Chamber.

The idea was to improve speed to get to Porth Crawl, then widen it to allow access to the digs up there. We went onto other digs shortly afterwards, so never persued that plan.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: bubba on July 13, 2005, 09:53:58 am
Yeah, this crawl was totally dry - I turned back at that point because it looked very tight, there were only two of us, and the lass I was with wasn't very experienced. I also thought we'd reached the end point digs :lol: Obviously it gets worse from then on in....

Don't think I'd even get that far these days. Best thing I remember from the trip is the old mine passage.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 13, 2005, 09:56:14 am
Quote from: "danthecavingman"
Just been on the phone to John Beck,

Dug out by the Keyhole Caving Club - was that you then Andy?


Yep. It was us m'lud.

Quote


From what John said there are some good leads beyond Porth Crawl, not just a possible connection with EDHC but also a big natural passage choked in both directions - sounds like potential to me.


A link with EDHC would be cool, its about time Carlswark got some more attention...  If I was planning to try, I'd probably dig from the EDHC end. IIRC, the dig was a comfortable phreatic tube, silted at the end with airspace over the top. It would need a group with drag trays, and steady progress could be made. You might make a meter or two per dig.

If you were serious about digging beyond Porth Crawl, I may even be prevailed upon to persuade it to be a bit bigger. We have the technology to do that....

Somewhere I read a description of Picnic passage by Pete Mellors, who described a cross rift at the end which could be dug.
Title: Sounding interesting....
Post by: danthecavingman on July 13, 2005, 11:38:38 am
Well I'm going to the Dynamite series tonight we'll see how that goes. I reckon next Wednesday will be a trip down EDHC to have a look at this dig. I'm keen for a project at the minute and I agree that Carlswark deserves some more attention. If EDHC can be connected then it sounds more viable than persuading Porth Crawl. John said that a smoke test had proved the link between Picnic Passage and EDHC. Anyone any idea how far apart the two are? I think I need to get a survey of EDHC in relation to Carlswark.

Cheers for the info guys,

Dan.
Title: Re: Sounding interesting....
Post by: AndyF on July 13, 2005, 12:23:31 pm
Quote from: "danthecavingman"
I think I need to get a survey of EDHC in relation to Carlswark.



Hi, I have a copy somewhere of a map of all the Stoney caves on one sheet. I can't remember if it has EDHC on it. I'll see if  I can find it.

It was prepared by John Beck, he must have the original.

If you are interested in a project in Stoney that is less gruesome to get to, then I can point you at a nice one in Rubble Rift. A nice size silt filled tube five minutes from the surface, with fill disposal sapce ten feet away. It was our dig before Waterways Swallet took over our lives, and I'll be digging in there for the rest of my life I think (!) so you could take that one over if you want.

It has the potential to link to Hangover hole about 30m away, or other stuff in the area. It really needs someone to do it...

There is also a nice dig to do in Watergrove Sough, digging through the run in shaft near the end. It may continue on the other side, which would go into a big block of Limestone..... Would need shoring taking there, and only do-able in the Summer
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on July 13, 2005, 12:23:41 pm
nice one - go for it.

However let me know before anyone widens porth crawl - I'd like a crack at it before just for posterity. Thinking about it - the point I reached sounds like it wasnt porth crawl but the old duck that bubs mentioned.

may have to go down some time and have another look.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: danthecavingman on July 13, 2005, 12:32:26 pm
Andy, you have my attention with Rubble Rift, as I am out that way tonight then maybe I will have a look if you can spill the beans.....
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 13, 2005, 01:20:35 pm
Here is a link to surveys:-

http://www.keyhole.org.uk/digs_rubble.asp

http://www.keyhole.org.uk/digs_hangover.asp

The dig in Rubble is marked as the "Silted Tube Dig". It's a comfortable tube size, sit on yer bum and hack away. needs an extra person to drag trays out and dump the spoil down the pot (which draughted, but was impossible to dig due to liquid goo)

If you haven't been in Hangover Hole, take a look around that too...
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: danthecavingman on July 13, 2005, 01:44:32 pm
Sounds to me like there's potential on t'other side of the Dale....

I doubt if anyone else is familiar with this but back in the mid nineties TSG were digging a site under the command of PB. If you come up Stoney Dale and turn sharp left after the bend you end up on a small road leading to Cavendish Mill. About 300 yds or so up the road on the right was a spot where a huge beech tree had come down. The tree was covering an old mine shaft that dropped into choked natural passage below but didn't go anywhere. We were digging there before Dowel Dale Side Pot took over. The last I remember of it was trying to shift the stump to allow better access to the mine shaft. The site is roughly located at OS Ref SK 209756. Still worth another look if I remember correctly.

Dan.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Dave H on July 13, 2005, 01:53:17 pm
Andy,

I've just read the trip report for Eyam Dale House Cave and it's not very reminicent of what we saw.  This shaft was 20' across, with ivy growing down the walls, but I couldn't see any grill or gate. I didn't want to go too near to the edge though, so I don't know how deep it was. It was situated above the shaft entrance of Carlswalk (opposite the sub-station) near the wall seperating the slope from the grassy, level fields.  And it was definately owned by the old-people's home.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 13, 2005, 02:57:27 pm
Hi Dave,

EDHC is definitely lidded as it is in the garden virtullay of the home, and is a "normal" shaft about 6 ft diameter.

I can't think what it is that you saw. There are a couple of shafts up there, Firset Shaft (lidded), Deep Shaft (Lidded with drums), an unnamed Shaft (Covered with concrete fence posts) and an unnamed run-in shaft right next to the wall. I wonder if the latter is what you saw. It is partly covered with corrugated iron, but is not 20' diameter..... It's also a long way from the Old Peoples home.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Mark on July 13, 2005, 05:29:05 pm
I really think it would be wrong to enlarge Porth Crawl, people dug up there in the seventies and eighties on a regular basis and managed ok, but I guess things move on and if the end justifies the means then fair play.

If you are up round hangover hole and rubble rift dont forget paracetem'ole further down the dale, biggish chambers lots of tight places to insert oneself, there must be a way on

I think Rob and co are playing with Farnsley Lane cave so leave that one alone

There is something big to find on that side of the dale
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 13, 2005, 06:18:39 pm
Quote from: "Mark"
I really think it would be wrong to enlarge Porth Crawl, people dug up there in the seventies and eighties on a regular basis and managed ok, but I guess things move on and if the end justifies the means then fair play.


It's a fair point. I think making things just "easier" is wrong, but to allow a dig to be pursued beyond is more of a dilema.

Many digs (these?) have had to be abandoned due to difficulty of access or remoteness. One has to look case by case and balance the likelihood of finds with the potential damage.

Most remaining digs these days need shoring, equipment or power tools taking to them. This would be hard in Porth Crawl.

Porth crawl isn't "pretty", but widening it would change the character of the trip.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on July 13, 2005, 11:15:20 pm
This could be the start of a huge and ugly debate that would deserve a thread of its own - Ive thought about starting it before - but darent. something along the lines -

"Have Hilti and Bosche spelt the end for 'Classic Squeezes' in all future caves - discuss'

or

"Retro capping - good or bad"
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: danthecavingman on July 13, 2005, 11:30:08 pm
I'm seriously going to think about the dig in EDHC before I even go anywhere near Porth Crawl. If EDHC is accessible fairly easily then the dig could be a goer. There is almost certainly more than just a connection with Carlswark on the cards having looked at the survey tonight and seen the distance involved.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: danthecavingman on July 14, 2005, 12:32:35 am
I heard a story tonight that the reason Porth Crawl was named was that someone working in Porth Cawl used to supply the "Porth Cawl Rock" that came in "sticks" that was used to enlarge the said passage to passable size. Any truth or not?
I'm not planning to enlarge it but if it was persuaded anyway.....
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Mark on July 14, 2005, 07:23:50 am
The passage was enlarged using the said rock. did you look at anything in Stoney last night Dan
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: bubba on July 14, 2005, 07:31:10 am
I always assumed the done thing was to enlarge the passage enough for the largest members of the digging team to get through.

Obviously this may create problems if the diggers are all skinnies, but hey, I've just accepted that to be the case and that there's some places I'll never get to because of my size. Although I sorta wouldn't mind if it happened, wouldn't it be a shame if every awkward bit of passage was enlarged to allow easy access for everyone?

Personally I think a bit of passage that had the treatment so long ago, should be left the way it is now, even if there is a tempting dig beyond.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 14, 2005, 09:43:03 am
Quote from: "danthecavingman"
..If EDHC is accessible fairly easily then the dig could be a goer. There is almost certainly more than just a connection with Carlswark on the cards..


Hi Dan,

I looked at my Stoney Survey last night. It doesn't show Picnic Passage, but extrapolating from the Carlswark Survey in CoD I would estimate that the distance between the dig in EDHC and Picnic Passage is around 30-40m.

EHDC dig, Picnic Passage and Ivy Green Cave all "point" into a big block of limestone with no known cave. All of these are, however, silt filled at their terminations.

CoD says that beyond Porth Crawl are "run-in shafts", raising the possibility of an entrance beyond it... Probably why the miners didn't enlarge it.
Title: Last Night in Eyam Dale.
Post by: danthecavingman on July 14, 2005, 12:18:17 pm
Went out last night with the intention of having a look at the Dynamite Series going in via the Flowerpot. A short hunt around found the entrance very easily so we got changed and prepared to go down. The barrels in the top of the shaft are fine, not squashed at all but the entrance is snug to say the least! Caver Mark went down, I watched from above. The shaft dropped down three blue barrels and then ended at a collapse where the way on in the floor was full of rocks but a void could be seen. Myself and Mark decided that time spent digging out this entrance would be worth while. In the meantime we sent Rob in through the Gin entrance to see if he could find the other side of the collapse from Falls Chamber. After maybe a dozen largish rocks had been hauled out, the way on was revealed to be through a very squashed barrel. The problem was that between the bottom of the third entrance barrel and the barrel in the floor was 2m of loose hanging material (Two of the walls were solid, two made of choss). Mark was not prepared to go down the barrel not knowing how collapsed it was beyond and fearing that the stuff where he was might run in so he struggled out and we sat at the top waiting to see if Rob might turn up.
After a short while we heard shouting and the glimmer of Robs light appeared through the bottom barrel. He reported that where he was the barrel appeared secure with plenty of solid rock around it but that there was a debris slope leading up to the barrel and some timbering holding some choss in place. We told him the situation on our side and Rob decided that rather than going back out through the Dynamite series he would have a look. So Rob appeared through the squashed barrel which was snug and awkward. He wasn't amused when he saw the hanging stuff but managed to get out without distrubing too much more.
We concluded that what had happened was that the bottom barrel of the four drum shaft had fallen at some time in the past and had then reconsolidated itself where it landed, being backfilled by stuff collapsing from above. The rocks that mself and Mark removed were presumably wedged behind the barrel before it fell.
The Flowerpot is currently dangerous and not a viable way in to Carlswark. There is a substantial risk of the bottom of the shaft running in further. Additionally the barrels were found to be very awkward to get out of!
Andy - how did you dig this entrance originally and how long did it take?
After last nights trip we thought that you could excavate the barrels and shore up the rift temporarily. Stabilise the bottom 6-8 feet then put bigger concrete rings in (which I think we have) and then back fill the excavation to make it all solid again. It would be a worthwhile project as it is a good way in to the far reaches of the cave.

Dan.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 14, 2005, 12:30:52 pm
Hi

We dug a gert big 'ole to get through, which took two days, then placed the barrels (which were not squashed!), and refilled round. That took just a few hours. To re-excavate and sort it out would not take long, as the surrounding "fill" will still all be loose rocks that should just lift out. I reckon a keen group of three or four could do it in a day. The key thing (which we know now) is that rock fill will settle, and hence the squashing problem. To avoid this, mix lots of wood and planks in with the fill to stabilise it. If this was done, I think the barrels would be ok to re-use instead of concrete rings.

I think this is a worthwhile thing to do, as it provides an interesting through trip as well as helping access the digging potential.

I'd be up for helping, plus could press gang some others, if it was an evening or w/e...
Title: Sounds like a plan....
Post by: danthecavingman on July 14, 2005, 03:58:06 pm
Andy,

Sounds good to me, I have interested parties at my end so we could get a team together for sure. The big question would be when....

BTW had the bottom barrel slipped or not?

Dan.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 14, 2005, 04:03:06 pm
Yes, the bottom barrel has slipped. They were right on top of each other.

I haven't seen the current state, but it may be possible to stabilise things with some mortar/cement, then just deal with the bottom barrel itself.

I work in the week, but can do evenings easily. I might go take a look myself, and have more of an idea how to tackle it.

BTW if you think the barrel is tight, you haven't seen Porth Crawl yet  :shock:
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Cave_Troll on July 14, 2005, 04:20:28 pm
Well have you met Dan recently? He's a bit tubby :-)
If i don't see you in the pub tonight Dan, i'm up for helping
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on July 14, 2005, 08:46:28 pm
Cool - possibly the first net driven digging team.

Go UKCavers.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Cave_Troll on July 15, 2005, 08:41:50 am
when and where?
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: cavermark on July 15, 2005, 12:47:42 pm
Something needs sorting with Flower pot because there's enough unstable stuff to bury someone in a fatal way at present. I think there's also an issue with it being close enough to the road that passing drivers seeing cavers using it might provoke a numpty to poke around and bury themself.
So options are;
a) Stabilise it so it's safe.
b) Fill it in.
c) Put a lid on it until someone is motivated to do (a)

Option (a) is only worthwhile if people think it saves enough time to access digs. Therefore (c) could be the short term solution.

In terms of the barrels they aren't especially tight (where they aren't squished) but those with long legs find passing the narrower "necks" going up quite strenous. If its to be redug and lined perhaps this would be a way - Cut the barrel tops off so you have a parallel tube to made an easy ladder climb. to stop the barrels squishing insert some steel hoops to keep them round. I could make the hoops up and have a couple of barrels that could be added to allow for the extra length required.
OR.. an even more permanent option - use the parallel barrel tube as shuttering to pour concrete around (easy access from road for the generator, mixer, etc., which I could supply if needed).

Seems we might have re-opened a "can of worms" but maybe that should be spiders - there were some big round egg sacs and gnarly looking ones all over the place.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on July 15, 2005, 01:23:20 pm
Thing is though - use anything metal, scaff - steel hoops etc or wood - and in 15 - 20 years time (maybe even sooner) - they're knackered/rotten and dangerous and your back to square one. (UM - very much like whats already happened (no offence Andy)

Use stone and concrete - it only gets stronger with time (as it calcifies)

For moorfurlong shaft - we used concrete 'gravel boards' and their associated posts. (you know those fences you see with vertical posts and concrete panels 8ft by 1 foot slid down between the posts)

Use the posts as lintles - and you stand the panels upright - then can then be 'capped' with the posts laid horizontal to secure everything in place.
We then backfilled with dry mix and rubble. I'll post up some photos of the moorfurlong construction later.

Thinking about it - if your close enough to the road - you can get wet concrete delivered right there and pumped into place - cubic meter of concrete is 80 quid (ish)  and it goes quite a long way (especially when mixed with loads of limestone rubble.

failing that - there is the DCA petrol cement mixer - available for just such projects.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on July 15, 2005, 01:24:21 pm
:oops: there I go jumping the gun again (see avatar)

should have read cavermarks post.

So we're agreed - concrete is the way forward then
Title: Next Wednesday
Post by: danthecavingman on July 15, 2005, 02:20:16 pm
What are people up to next Wednesday evening? I was thinking of going down Eyam Dale House Cave but it's unlikely I will get the proof of insurance I need before then.
How about a working session on Flowerpot? Basically if the barrels are staying (no reason why they shouldn't), then what needs attention is the base of the shaft. Materials shouldn't be too hard to come by. I'm not certain exactly what we would need, Mark may have the best idea. Things like concrete, expanding foam and that sort of stuff are easily obtained. I reckon I'm up for it, Mark if he's not away, Rob will be, possibly Cave Troll. How about you Andy? The biggest question to my mind is what will we line the base of the shaft with. I'm not sure the squashed barrel is suitable any more.
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Cave_Troll on July 15, 2005, 03:05:15 pm
i'm available next wednesday evening... might need to plan a bit first. concrete etc...
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on July 15, 2005, 05:37:43 pm
Quote
The biggest question to my mind is what will we line the base of the shaft with.


errrrmm - see my post above ?? re concrete fence panels ??

here are some photos of what we did with moorfurlong.

(http://ukcaving.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10004/normal_HOLE4.JPG)

(http://ukcaving.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10004/normal_Untitled-Scanned-07.jpg)

(http://ukcaving.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10004/normal_Untitled-Scanned-02.jpg)

(http://ukcaving.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10004/normal_Untitled-Scanned-09.jpg)
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 18, 2005, 08:38:20 am
Unfortunately, I'm working in the South this week, so I'm not around on Wednesday.

My thoughts on this would be to probably dig out all the barrels and do the job properly. I think it would be too awkward/difficult to just do the bottom one, (and dangerous from the sound of it).

When we dug in, we wern't exactly sure where to dig, so excavated a very big hole. The hole has solid walls (its like a rift) and the fill will be very loose, so a few people could empty it quite quickly. The far side, (under the tree) is also fairly solid.

Good loooking job on Moorfurlong, BTW...
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 20, 2005, 12:21:05 pm
Actually, I'm back in Matlock now, so I am avaialable tonight.Are people still going, if so what sort of time?  7 ish?
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: danthecavingman on July 20, 2005, 01:12:38 pm
I am currently set for a trip down P7 tonight, it's so dry that if the sump is ever going to drop then now will be the time. Fancy coming?
How about the Cave Troll?
Title: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on July 20, 2005, 01:33:39 pm
Thanks, but I think I'll visit Flower Pot anyway, just to see the state of it.

I'm also trying to nip out with a friend who is currently trying to buy Oxclose Mine (!)...(or rather the house that owns the entrance)....
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Pipster on February 07, 2008, 03:38:03 pm
So did anything ever happen with Flower Pot then?
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: T pot 1 on February 07, 2008, 10:28:49 pm
Digging in stoney !!!!!!   MMMMMMMMMMM :down: Try the the choke at the bottom of Farnsley Lane Swallet, most southern cave in Stoney ? 86ft deep with good potential
PM for more details if interested

T pot
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Rob on February 08, 2008, 08:57:20 am
Try the the choke at the bottom of Farnsley Lane Swallet...
Especially if you like getting high on strong chemical waste  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: danthecavingman on February 08, 2008, 08:54:21 pm
Hmm, still interested in this one.

I know Norman used to have a stack of concrete rings round at his - wonder if they are still there, they have been there a long time. I think that the Flower Pot entrance would be worth re-excavating. How many people would we need over a weekend to sort it? Any permissions needed Andy?

Dan.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on February 09, 2008, 11:25:42 pm
Hmm, still interested in this one.

I know Norman used to have a stack of concrete rings round at his - wonder if they are still there, they have been there a long time. I think that the Flower Pot entrance would be worth re-excavating. How many people would we need over a weekend to sort it? Any permissions needed Andy?

Dan.

Apparently there is actually a landowner, though we had assumed it was the council at the time, and (in youthful ignorance) just got on and dug it.

Three of us did it over one weenend, and the fill was very solid. It would take much less time now as the fill will be looser...

It has solid walls (its a sort of short rake) Concrete rings may not fit unless they are quite narrow.

Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on February 10, 2008, 09:11:27 am
what about that black ribbed drainage pipe. Used to great effect at hunger hill swallet. Its perfect for lining small shafts, wont degrade.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on February 10, 2008, 10:13:00 am
what about that black ribbed drainage pipe. Used to great effect at hunger hill swallet. Its perfect for lining small shafts, wont degrade.

Not sure it wouldn't "squash" as the refilled choke settles as the blue drums have done, its something we didnt uderstand at the time. Just a good few tree trunks mixed in with the backfill apparently helps too.

 I
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Hughie on February 10, 2008, 02:12:33 pm
what about that black ribbed drainage pipe. Used to great effect at hunger hill swallet. Its perfect for lining small shafts, wont degrade.

Not sure it wouldn't "squash" as the refilled choke settles as the blue drums have done, its something we didnt uderstand at the time. Just a good few tree trunks mixed in with the backfill apparently helps too.

 I

The larger body sized ribbed tubes are pretty tough, and are usually double skinned for extra strength. We use them for culverting gateways. Having said that, the single skinned variant will crush - but only under huge load.
If you want prices, let me know and I'll contact our suppliers.

To be honest, the blue drums (ir they're the ones I'm thinking of) completely lose their integrity when the ends are removed.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on February 10, 2008, 03:14:56 pm

Pretty sure they'd stand up to it - you usually see them buried under huge motorway embankments etc. As hughie states - the double skinned ones are tougher.

Much much stronger than barrels as they have actually been designed to withstand a crushing load. The hunger hill swallet one goes down about 15 - 20 feet.  It also stands about a foot proud to prevent flood water from a nearby stream disappearing down it - which was a good idea I thought.

Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on February 10, 2008, 04:15:07 pm
Fair enough, I hadnt heard of the double skinned ones....

...if we could get a length it would be an easy job  Ithink.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on February 10, 2008, 05:23:18 pm

Hughie might be able to get you a price, but otherwise - I'd keep you eyes peeled as you drive around. You never know eh. Infact - I think terry worthington mentioned the other night that there was a load of roadworks nr Matlock coming to and end - and there was stacks of the stuff kicking about, might be worth having a word with someone down there, its the type of stuff where there'll undoubtedly be a few lengths or off cuts left over at the end of a job. Needs to be the big stuff though - to cater for the larger caver  :)
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Mark on February 10, 2008, 07:15:33 pm
Needs to be the big stuff though - to cater for the larger caver  :)

Dont worry about the big stuff, if they cant get through it they aint going anywhere once they are inside anyway
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: bubba on February 10, 2008, 07:39:13 pm

Yes, Dynamite is pretty tight if you're biggish build. I used to go there back in the day when i was a skinny lad and had no problems, but when i went back a couple of years ago I got stuck coming back out of the first squeeze which scared the crap out of me :lol:
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Pipster on February 10, 2008, 09:13:14 pm
Giz a shout if you want some help re-excavating.  ;)
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Hughie on February 10, 2008, 10:39:44 pm
I'll sniff out some prices from a couple of suppliers.

Have seen largish cavers free dive through the 600mm version, so I'll enquire about that sort of size. There should be some upcoming work on the Levels near me, so, as Sam says, there may be some spare bits around.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: paul on February 11, 2008, 12:34:57 pm
Hughie might be able to get you a price, but otherwise - I'd keep you eyes peeled as you drive around. You never know eh. Infact - I think terry worthington mentioned the other night that there was a load of roadworks nr Matlock coming to and end - and there was stacks of the stuff kicking about, might be worth having a word with someone down there, its the type of stuff where there'll undoubtedly be a few lengths or off cuts left over at the end of a job. Needs to be the big stuff though - to cater for the larger caver  :)

That'll probably be at the by-pass near the new Sainsburys (at Cawdor Quarry).

Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on February 11, 2008, 02:09:36 pm
600 mm sounds about right.

Im trying to find a picture of the stuff on the net. I reckon a company called Naylor Drainage are the guys that manufacture it but their website is "under construction" no pun inteded Im sure. - I know (from googling) that Naylor Ducting, do all the stuff that the highways agency use to lay cables in (purple/yellow/green etc  ~150mm).

Reckon it'll be really costly to buy - espcially in non bulk. but If you can befreind a bod at some roadworks - it might be the best way
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on February 11, 2008, 02:13:08 pm

knew I'd get there in the end.

http://www.essexgroundworksupplies.co.uk/index.asp?textpage=ppCivil&mainpage=drainage
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Peter Burgess on February 11, 2008, 02:15:26 pm
Whoever makes it might have sub-standard rejects that they would be glad to get rid of? I have heard of concrete pipe sections being passed on to cavers in similar circmstances. As long as those who use them accept the risk that they might not do the job intended.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Rob on February 11, 2008, 02:31:40 pm
At work we've just (as in on thrusday!) discontinued development of our 630mm butt-fusion machine similar to this...
(http://www.jlsjpipe.com/upimage/d871a9f1-95d6-48dd-9684-f67a0d643d0e.jpg)
...so i've been investigating the test cutt-offs of pipe. However if you've ever seen a polyethylene pipe 630mm in diameter you'll know that the walls are v thick (~10% dia) meaning that they are VERY expensive and very heavy! Will let you know if i get any oportunities, but don't hold out!
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on February 11, 2008, 02:35:44 pm

Rob - like the big yellow gas pipe thats been laying all over sheff for the last few years. Indeed - very very heavy.

This Rigid pipe stuff is feather weight - two people can carry a 3m length with one hand each.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: shotlighter on February 11, 2008, 04:33:35 pm
At work we've just (as in on thrusday!) discontinued development of our 630mm butt-fusion machine similar to this...
(http://www.jlsjpipe.com/upimage/d871a9f1-95d6-48dd-9684-f67a0d643d0e.jpg)
...so i've been investigating the test cutt-offs of pipe. However if you've ever seen a polyethylene pipe 630mm in diameter you'll know that the walls are v thick (~10% dia) meaning that they are VERY expensive and very heavy! Will let you know if i get any oportunities, but don't hold out!
Cuts very well "wiv a chainsaw" - bit untidy buy good enough for our uses.
If you're desperate I think we still have a stock of (chainsawed) 2m lenths of blue 630mm HP watermain stuff (if it's not been nicked).
But you'd probably have to fetch if from Astbury (Cheshire).
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on February 11, 2008, 04:46:56 pm
[sn-word] he said butt fusion machine [/sn-word]
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: shotlighter on February 11, 2008, 04:50:28 pm
[sn-word] he said butt fusion machine [/sn-word]
Listening to "Darkest Hour" as you posted Sam?
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Hughie on February 11, 2008, 07:17:20 pm
Ok - got some prices.

6m lengths of 600mm will cost in the region of £280 to £300 + vat.

 
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on February 11, 2008, 07:47:27 pm
 :o

thought so - I'll stick to keeping my eyes peeled.

Nige - it was more bevis and butthead. a
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: shotlighter on February 11, 2008, 08:31:12 pm
:o

thought so - I'll stick to keeping my eyes peeled.

Nige - it was more bevis and butthead. a
Have strong recolletion of 'em headbanging on the sofa to Darkest Hour, but having looked at the B&B website, the only Megadeth track they did it to was Symphony of Destruction.
What the *%!^ was i doing on Fri nights!  :confused:
Miles off topic, but the pipe offers still there!
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on February 11, 2008, 08:38:26 pm

Ah - didn't spot the megadeath ref.

have to admit that I've got other priorities that flower pot. however it seems there is some interest, so maybe AndyF or Pipster might take up your offer.

Cheers Nigel.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Pipster on February 21, 2008, 02:15:56 pm
hmmm, sadly I don't know where to begin on such things; but theres only one way to learn and I'm happy through some time and effort at it. :) If anyone decides to go ahead, send us a PM, and I'd be happy to help.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: JonP on June 15, 2008, 05:07:11 pm
hey,

me and two others went into the dynamite series today with the intensions of finding flower pot and possibly exiting through this way. first off we went to flower pot to open the lid and secure a handline to be used if necessary. After a quick trek through the cave we got to the start of the dynamite series and scaled through dynamite chamber. after a quick breather carried on the way forward through a right angled squeezed into a opened rectangular chamber. at the end of the chamber was a duck squeeze in the floor with running boards passing through. this squeeze was abit flooded and the helmets had to come off. at the end of the squeeze was a small opened bowl with the only way on through a little entrance to your left leading into midnight chamber? after another breather we followed on through via the only accessible way to the right of the chamber a hands & knees crawl leading to prospect chamber? so from there we went to the end of the chamber to find only a small crawl entrance at floor level. i pressume this was the entrance to porth crawl?? we decided not to go down and eventually by accident we found the entrance '1st extension, falls chamber.' after an awkward climb we entered the passage (very tight with helmets on!) and eventually came to a rift going towards the left. after a scramble through the rift, duck under a giant stone with a hole in the floor, then over another into a small bowl type opening which we had to climb up through a tight stand-up climb. through this we pressumed to be inside of 'falls chamber.'/ "rift shaped" after a 3-4metre scramble up there were three passages on.
Standing at the entrance (top of the rift);-

at this point two of the five lamps decided to die on us. so we quickly left via the gin entrance safely.

if anybody understands where we were please can you point us in the right direction to flower-pot?!?

has it been filled?!?

Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: ianball11 on June 15, 2008, 07:32:37 pm
Why not go in from Flower pot and see where it gets you to?

Ian B.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: danthecavingman on June 15, 2008, 08:51:41 pm
The Blue Barrels will be the bottom of Flower Pot. Sounds like it has run in properly.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: JonP on June 15, 2008, 11:32:45 pm
when we opened flower pot up from the top 3 of the 4 barrels were still existing and there must have been 1metre or so of open air space below. when was the last time anyone went down?
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: caverholic on June 16, 2008, 04:35:34 pm
Someone from suss went through last year and kinda had to dig his way out as it collapsed a bit behind him (I think).
This may not have been the best thing to do but I believe the whole thing is reasonably unstable.
There has been lots of dicussion on how to open it up again but as yet I don't think anyone has had the time.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on September 16, 2008, 04:24:11 pm

Just thought I'd resurrect this topic, given the recent offer of pipe from the crewe. (same as Shot lighter offered in this tread earlier.

Sounds like this pipe will be making its way to Hucklow soon.

Im sure a length or two  some could be dropped off at stoney.

There where plenty of volunteers on this thread,

pipster, CaveTroll, AndyF.  - plus the others from the other thread, Pembertons, Jams, MarkC, MartinB.

From AndyF's comments, sounds like you just need to excavate the old barrels out by digging out the loose fill to create a gert big hole.

Stick the new blue pipe in, Refill loose fill. Easy peasy.

Come lads. 'ave it.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Rob on September 16, 2008, 04:27:07 pm
If i'm free i'll giv an and an all...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: JonP on September 16, 2008, 05:12:27 pm
indeed resurrection. went for a trip through porth crawl last week did Jams & myslef. got as far as Straw inlet in picnic passage, was a good trip!

Should hopefully be a trip report in the next Eldon news letter!! ;)
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Pipster on September 17, 2008, 10:02:46 am

There where plenty of volunteers on this thread,

pipster, CaveTroll, AndyF.  - plus the others from the other thread, Pembertons, Jams, MarkC, MartinB.


Yup, giz a shout and if I'm free (weekends seem quite busy at the moment) I'll be there. :)
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: Rob on September 17, 2008, 01:37:23 pm
...went for a trip through porth crawl last week did Jams & myslef. got as far as Straw inlet in picnic passage, was a good trip!...
How wet was it at Buckely's Dig, the crawl just before Straw inlet? When i went through it was definitely unpleasant!

Did you climb up to the top and have a look at the draughting choke up there? Would be good if that draught isn't straight from the surface, although you'd probably cause a bit of damage taking the dig on. A surface survey tied into the cave data would easily answer it, but i don't suppose either are readily available.  :coffee:
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: JonP on September 18, 2008, 12:09:18 am
Hey Rob, Buckley's dig had about an inch or so of water so wasnt to bad to be honest. was very muddy and cold though. I did'nt actually climb up straw inlet, that was left for my partner in crime Jams...im sure he'll speak up sooner than later and confirm. were aiming to go back shortly to take Sammyp down and have a good gander at the end.
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: MarkC on September 18, 2008, 08:17:06 pm
Re. Fower Pot entrance stabilisation works

Given that work would take place next to the road on the surface, within a declining unit of the SSSI designation, I would like to run this by Jo Poll at Natural England before work commences.  I can't see there being any problem as the work on Flower Pot is urgently needed on safety grounds, and in terms of the conservation audit that I have been preparing for the DCA, I have not identified any underground conservation issues.  Nevertheless caving in the Dale must be seen to be responsible if access is to be continued so freely.  Indeed Natural England also provides funding for DCA conservation projects (such as the Rowter Hole re-cap & Hungerhill Swallet shaft), which a number of other projects in the Dale would benefit: big dig collapse, streaks upper entrance... 

The next DCA Underground Conservation Forum meeting taking place at the Natural England offices in a few weeks has on the agenda "Conservation and Access Issues, which will include the protocols for cave digging with special reference to awareness-raising of duties and responsibilities".  It is therefore timely that the correct procedure is followed for Flower Pot. 

Martin B and I will be visiting Flower Pot tomorrow evening (Friday from about 5:30pm) should anyone like to attend to discuss the plans.

Mark
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: SamT on September 18, 2008, 10:36:28 pm

I understand the pemberton boys will be there on saturday, to have a recce, measure up, etc. They are keen as mustard to get on with this and they have time on their hands.

Word from andyf is that its a simple job - dig out the old barrels, expose the solid rift. insert new pipe, refill.

Quote from: andyf
We just piled the rubble up, there isnt that much, maybe 6-8 cubic yards. It will all stack next tot he hole.
What you wil find is there are 2 solid walls, and it is a sort of "rift", so the hole wont get too big.

Having spoken to John Beck, he advised to just ask permission of the land owner, which should be no prob.

Im not sure what good running it past Jo Poll will do really. I understand the sentiment behind it. but given that its been done before, Jo is highly unlikely to have any objections, I dont see why we should delay matters when we have some lads keen to get on.

Only thing we have to wait for is this pipe making its way up from crewe to Nick Williams. However, theres nothing to stop the boys making a start with digging out the old barrels. I get the impression the whole thing could be done in a couple of days.

Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: AndyF on September 18, 2008, 10:49:01 pm
6 People could do the job in one day. Id say put a tarp down to stack on to avoid damage to vegetaion.

Given the rock was all out a few years back should be easy to re-excavate.

Takea step ladder to make it easy in and out of the hole and minimize pulling the walls in  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: MarkC on September 20, 2008, 07:42:10 pm
Can I emphasize that damage to a SSSI is illegal under the wildlife & countryside act, with unlimited and fines and potential imprisonment of up to eighteen months for 'reckless' disturbance of habitat under the CROW act.  Please please don't do any work until I have spoken to Natural England.  It will only take a phone call - I'll get onto this on Monday. 

Sam T - -this won't hold things up terribly, but is likely to mean that we will have to work within NE guidelines.  If access is to be continued to SSSIs in the peak, and if Natural England is to continue funding for DCA projects such as the Rowter recap, Hungerhill etc then we must keep them on our side.  The DCA Conservation Officer has already been in touch with me regarding this matter and I have requested that funds are made available for materials on this project should the appropriate processes be followed.

Mark
Title: Re: Carlswark Dynamite series.
Post by: MarkC on September 23, 2008, 07:35:48 pm
Sam,

Thanks for speaking to Jo Poll today and for querying with John Beck about land ownership.  I spoke to her earlier today also, with regard to recent stability issues affecting the caves of the Dale.  She was supportive of the reasons behind the work being proposed and is keen that Natural England funding is made available through the DCA for such projects.  However as suspected we need to notify her of any proposals to ensue there there are no adverse environmental effects (biological or geological) on the SSSI designation.  She appreciates that it's important to keep the momentum going when the is interest in such projects, and as such will endeavor to get back to us as soon as possible.   

If your happy to contact the landowner that's great.  I've got some detailed mapping of the Dale as part of the desk study I'm preparing, so can easily produce a plan to provide to Jo Poll.  I'll post this on the forum for comment before sending it off.  I'll also have a word with Dave Webb (the DCA conservation officer) and Martyn Grayson (DCA projects officer) with regard to funding materials.  In the mean time perhaps we could continue with a discussion on the other thread as to exactly what we're proposing...

Mark

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