UK Caving

WHERE THE CAVES ARE - The Caving Regions => Peak District => Topic started by: aquamole jim on August 15, 2016, 09:16:40 pm

Title: Castleton problems
Post by: aquamole jim on August 15, 2016, 09:16:40 pm
It looks like Derbyshire County Council, are imposing new parking restrictions in Castleton, which may have a very negative impact on cavers, especially those who use the T.S.G caving club.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: 2xw on August 21, 2016, 12:59:13 pm
Jim,

I've seen you and Anne linking to this but I can't find anyrhing online. Is there an address to whom we can send objections?

Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: owd git on August 21, 2016, 02:47:45 pm
On a worrying note several thousand bikers protesting and blockading Matlock bath had no effect on the same authority :confused: :confused: :furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:
will support you none the less. :thumbsup:
O.G.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: 2xw on August 21, 2016, 04:11:33 pm
Wonder if a bit of expanding foam and an angle grinder would work instead  :tease:  :shrug:
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on August 21, 2016, 06:32:39 pm
Wonder if a bit of expanding foam and an angle grinder would work instead  :tease:  :shrug:

This is absolutely not the way to tackle this potential menace.

There will be some information on the Derbyshire County Council's website, giving details of the proposal - and the only way to influence this decision is to make a formal objection, to be in DCC's hands before Friday 2nd September. You need to write to:

STRATEGIC DIRECTOR - ECONOMY TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS,
DERBYSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL,
COUNTY HALL,
MATLOCK,
DE4 3AG

There is no point sending anything abusive, or accusatory (despite what many of us are probably thinking). You need to list concrete reasons why this proposed parking alteration would create a worse situation than that at present. This has the potential to have a seriously adverse effect on cavers in the UK nationally, not just Peak District cavers. If you don't give proper grounds for your objection DCC will have every justification for filing it under "b".

There is also an email address: netmanadmin@derbyshire.gov.uk

(However, a real letter would probably have more clout.)

There is only a very short time to do your bit, so please, everyone, write a structured letter to object.

This is the thin end of a very nasty wedge and you might like to ask yourself where will be next, if it's not nipped in the bud.

Go on - JUST DO IT!
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: 2xw on August 21, 2016, 07:22:00 pm
It would be useful to have a proper list of what is potentially occuring - I searched "castleton parking" and also just "castleton" on the DCC website and found nowt.

A link to the full list of the proposals would be good and what exactly is going to happen. Read different things on UKC and Facebook
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Mark on August 21, 2016, 07:37:25 pm
Links to proposals

http://www.castletonvillage.co.uk/Z3136%20Proposed%20Traffic%20Regulation%20Order%20-%20Castleton.pdf (http://www.castletonvillage.co.uk/Z3136%20Proposed%20Traffic%20Regulation%20Order%20-%20Castleton.pdf)

http://www.castletonvillage.co.uk/Castleton_HMT274%20%20final%20F%20.pdf (http://www.castletonvillage.co.uk/Castleton_HMT274%20%20final%20F%20.pdf)

Also the following info

Castleton Parish Council

NOTICE OF EXTRAORDINARY MEETING: THURSDAY 25th AUGUST 2016, 7PM at CASTLETON VILLAGE HALL
Notice is hereby given of the above meeting, to which all Councillors are hereby summoned to attend, for the purposes of transacting the following business:

Item 1

To consider accepting any apologies for absence.

Item 2

To record declarations of personal or pecuniary interests from Members as to any items to be discussed and as necessary or appropriate to receive and approve any Members’ requests for dispensations on matters in which they have any Disclosable Pecuniary Interests.

Item 3

Public Participation:  Members of the public will be allowed to speak to the meeting upon items included in the Agenda in accordance with Standing Orders and at the discretion of the Chair of the meeting.

Item 4

Proposed Traffic Regulation Order:  To consider the proposed order, discuss and instruct notification of the Council’s views to the relevant authorities.


Public participation is usually only about 15 minutes, so if anyone is around on Thursday and could attend you might get your two pennerth in, at the very least you will get some idea of the feelings of other residents.


Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: todcaver on August 22, 2016, 07:13:33 am
I'm guessing all the local residents and shop owners have been informed about said meeting  :shrug:
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Mrs Trellis on August 22, 2016, 09:47:24 am
Don't cavers drink any more? All the pub car parks are free to patrons.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: bograt on August 22, 2016, 10:33:23 am
Don't cavers drink any more? All the pub car parks are free to patrons.

Indeed, I recall TSG having an agreement with the then landlord of the Peak Hotel, and I believe the Landlord of the Bull is still the chap who had the Wanted for a while, so he understands cavers----(err, a good thing??? :-\ :-\).
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: pwhole on August 22, 2016, 11:10:30 am
I don't drink or drive, so much of this argument is fairly abstract to me, but I am very involved in the TSG and am well aware of the danger to the club that this proposal might create. Certainly the Peak Hotel have been tolerant if drinks are purchased, and that is one route to go down in extremis, but often a visit to the club may be daytime weekdays and not for the whole day, and so drinking before driving merely to secure a parking place is certainly not to be recommended, and not really a solution in the long-term.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Mrs Trellis on August 22, 2016, 01:10:41 pm
You don't have to drink alcohol to be a patron.

Wacker & I know and use an offroad parking place which we may be able to persuade the owner to allow designated vehicles to park there as long as his own vehicle isn't obstructed.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: pwhole on August 22, 2016, 01:49:12 pm
I know, but a £3 glass of coke isn't much of a draw either when I can get a 2L bottle for half that price. I just don't like pubs, personally, but that's just me. Intrigued on the suggestion though. I've just finished my objection letter, so will whack in the postbox this afternoon.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on August 22, 2016, 01:56:31 pm
You don't have to drink alcohol to be a patron.

Wacker & I know and use an offroad parking place which we may be able to persuade the owner to allow designated vehicles to park there as long as his own vehicle isn't obstructed.


Mrs Trellis, Could you possibly Pm me so that we can discuss this. I'm keen to know where and how many potential parking spots before we go any further. (perhaps I'll take you up on that offer of meeting up in Stockport at lunch...)

I will, no doubt, turn up to the meeting on Thursday eve and then complete and send a letter on Friday.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: cooleycr on August 22, 2016, 02:23:10 pm
I know that The Peak Hotel don't mind us (TSG) parking up on our club meeting nights so long as we pop in for a drink (minimum spend £10 I believe!) but we are talking about the requirement to park a vehicle potentially from Friday afternoon through Sunday evening (for anyone staying over at the Chapel).

This situation will not only impact cavers but climbers and walkers alike as we all go out for more than the two hours that is being proposed so can this info get reposted on the other websites so as to make everyone aware - as much as we like to think we are the reason that Castleton exists, the area is not just about caving
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on August 25, 2016, 11:10:15 pm
Well Attended meeting, all villagers seemed in opposition to the Plans (standing room only).

Similar Plans are apparently in place to impose restrictions in Bradwell, Hope, and Hathersage.

Little to no consultation has taken place with Castleton Parish Council or High Peak Borough Council.

Join my fight on Twitter @CURB_hopeV_park
and we'll see just how effective a social Media Campaign can be.

Key points:
- Castleton is a conservation zone, Parking meters beside the Church will be an eyesore in comparison to the Grade 2 listed Church and Historically important walls around it.
- Plans to Change the main street in front of Peveril Bakery to be streetside parking will:
 1) make it impossible for Those Travelling by bus to Cross the road if all parking spots are taken
 2) Block 3 Disabled Access ramps to the pavement with cars.
 3) make it impossible for Disabled visitors to use the pavement due to reduced space for Wheelchairs on the pavement (due to parking meters on an already tiny width pavement).
 4) Stop a short stay in front of Peveril Stores for a smash and grab for Grub, (John Harrison [Showcave owner] and the Hope cement works guys always do this).
 5) Increase the likelihood of people "doing no harm" by pulling up in the Bus station to visit the shop.
 6) make it impossible for Busses to pull into the Bus station due to cars parked (on opposite side of road)

In short the Proposed Restrictions are unworkable, illogical, not very well thought through and Downright dangerous.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: nickwilliams on August 25, 2016, 11:27:39 pm
Hi Alastair,

Was anyone from DCC present at the meeting, and if so was there any explanation of what they are trying to achieve with these proposals?
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on August 25, 2016, 11:35:13 pm
No show From DCC, despite an invitation. Castleton Parish were only informed two weeks ago (of the implementation of the plans)

All contact with DCC seems to point to moneymaking. Despite making a loss on current parking meters along the road (peak cavern CP to jn with Arthurs way and Treak cliff road).
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: bograt on August 25, 2016, 11:44:55 pm
Surely Peak Cavern CP is independent?
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: pwhole on August 25, 2016, 11:56:15 pm
I think he just means the zone is from the Peak Cavern car park up the Buxton Road, not the car park itself.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on August 26, 2016, 09:39:00 am
yes, from the meters along the road, PW says Buxton Road and I heard Buxton road a lot last night as well.

Buxton road it must be!

The onroad bays start outside the peak cavern car park and continue up the (Treakcliff/odin/mamtor) road to the speedwell overflow (I'm guessing they're thinking of Reinstating the meters up that section of road, they are currently burnt out and broken).
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Edd on August 26, 2016, 10:08:54 pm
Here are my notes from the meeting last night:

- Castleton villagers are very against the proposed changes and everyone wants to see them stopped/blocked
- DCC were invited along to the meeting but didn't attend (they said they hadn't received the invitation)
- Verbally, DCC have said that the intention is to raise revenues
- The planning rules don't allow revenue raising to be used as a justification for introducing pay and display parking (only safety concerns and relieving congestion)
- An accountant has analysed some reports about similar applications in Derbyshire made a loss of £1k and one only made £5k - so not really worth it economically (there were a number of figures stated, hopefully the source report will be referenced by Castleton PC somewhere soon)
- Studies of introducing similar schemes in Glossop, Ashbourne and Matlock stated that the towns were too small to benefit from such a system
- DCC have conducted no studies into the viability or impact of the scheme so there is no basis for it.
- The scheme is planned to be extended through the Hope Valley (Hathersage, Bamford & Hope)
- The local councillors and MP are very much behind the Castleton residents

CASTLETON PARISH COUNCIL PLANS
- Raise the issue in the media
- EVERYONE to send in their objections by 2nd September
- Legal options to be investigated
- Local ombudsman will be contacted
- Statement of facts/refutation of DCC's case will be put together
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Edd on August 26, 2016, 10:36:14 pm
I should emphasise that the two really important things are;
1) Send in your objections by WEDNESDAY
2) If you have relevant experience or expertise to fight these changes, make yourself known. I'm trying to get a point of contact in Castleton Parish Council to coordinate this help.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Cave_Troll on August 27, 2016, 08:34:25 pm
the question of legality will be brushed aside . the flashing yellow lights outside the school have a sign under them saying "funded by the castleton on street parking scheme"
DCC'll say that the new P&D bays will be used to find safety schemes and so its justified

the 3 bays next to the bus station on the opposite side of the road from the perivil stores are going to be 30 mins waiting. so that's the "people want to pop in for a newspaper" problem "sorted".

at least one of the dropped kerbs that are described as "wheelchair access" is actually to solve the problem of there being a manhole crossing the kerb. the others will likely be marked and the bays arranged so they're not blocked

there is a gap in the bays outside the peak hotel which will "allow cars from hope to pull in to allow cars from castleton to pass"

the bloke with a garage next to the stores will find that there are no bays in front of his garage and in fact the double yellows will prevent parking in front of it.
 
I'd guess that the meters will be on the pavement on the same side as the bus turning circle. the bays outside the church will also probably have meters on the pavement side of the road. so narrow pavements won't be blocked.

The council will probably view the opinions of the villagers as just "scared of change"

the on road parking out past the Peak cavern carpark towards odin will become 4 hours max. at the moment MTB and walkers can stay there all day, this will stop them doing that. i suspect that it may well get changed back to all day . especially as part of a "compromise" from DCC


:-(




Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Cave_Troll on August 27, 2016, 08:37:35 pm
thats from my experience of working with councils on residents parking by the way..

you may be able to put in a Freedom of information request to see the logs of emails coming in to DCC to prove that they did not get the invite email from the parish council.

sorry i don't work for that council so i can't  help with that...
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on August 28, 2016, 07:58:15 am
Despite Cave Troll's less than encouraging opinion - the only certainty is that, if we don't raise structured objections, this will go ahead.

Just do it.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: droid on August 28, 2016, 02:29:51 pm
Agreed, Pitlamp.

However: given DCC's performance in Matlock Bath, despite several thousand motorcyclists protesting and opposition from local businesses, I wouldn't hold my breath.....:-(
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Gollum on August 28, 2016, 06:14:39 pm
I used to have a lot of meetings with DCC in my previous roll of union rep. I can tell you from experience that DCC believe consultation is telling you what they are doing. I wish you luck with your campaign.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: martinb on August 28, 2016, 06:59:09 pm
DCC road roughshod over the people of Hasland, Chesterfield a number of years ago when they installed traffic lights at a junction where there had been a mini roundabout.

Instead of relatively free flowing traffic, the timing of the lights snarled up the surrounding roads. So the good people of Hasland started a petition demanding their roundabout back. Then a number of pedestrian accidents caused by cars squarely shifted DCC focus as there had never been a problem with the pelican crossing when there had been a mini roundabout.

IIRC, there was a fatality and DCC promised to put back the mini roundabout and crossing. They did and everything is back to normal.

So perhaps, when DCC make the changes, realise that the village shops and pubs start shouting that they are loosing money, they'll put everything back to how it was.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on August 28, 2016, 07:50:50 pm
Agreed, Pitlamp.

However: given DCC's performance in Matlock Bath, despite several thousand motorcyclists protesting and opposition from local businesses, I wouldn't hold my breath.....:-(

It might have depended on whether said motorcyclists took the trouble to produce properly structured arguments or whether many of their communications were less than polite.

It strikes me that perhaps DCA might usefully state a position on this problem, which would affect all Peak District cavers if it were to go ahead. It would be more difficult for the Council to go against the express wishes of the organisation that represents all cavers' interests in this caving area - especially when it relates to (arguably) the finest cave system in the Peak District. I'm not a member currently so I'm not in a position to ask its officers. But it'd be great if someone who is a member could do).

In fact, if DCC hasn't directly consulted DCA already, a perfectly reasonable question is "Why not?". If they haven't then it reveals how shallow an effort they've made to "consult" stakeholders.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Jenny P on August 29, 2016, 04:16:49 pm
In fact DCA have been asked by TSG members to help over this problem and have been in communication with them to see if there is anything we can do.  We have not been approached by DCC.

One thing which puzzles me slightly over this is the reference to DCC.  I was under the assumption that it was the local DISTRICT Council who have responsibility for parking enforcement.  So, in the case of Castleton this would be High Peak Borough Council.  Certainly the parking restrictions in Ashbourne are overseen by Derbyshire Dales District Council, not by DCC.  If HPBC could be persuaded to object as well as the Parish Council and the residents there could be some mileage in that.

Also worth noting that the motorcyclists have voted with their wheels over the new restrictions in Matlock Bath - The comment today was that there had never been so many motorcycles parked outside the Smithy Cafe in Monyash.  This will have lost the traders of Matlock Bath a lot of money so one hopes they will get on to Derbyshire Dales D.C. and protest about this.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Edd on August 29, 2016, 09:32:30 pm
It is definitely Derbyshire County Council, who are trying to implement the scheme. Derbyshire County Council are for the scheme and all of the local politicians - from the Parish Council to local MP - are against the scheme. Someone (the Chairman?) of High Peak Borough Council was at the public meeting on Thursday and said he would voice his objections too, as did Jocelyn Streak the County Councillor (elected member not civil servant).

I'm waiting to hear back from the Castleton Parish Council at the moment so there is direct communication between them and the cavers. I'd like them to collect all of their evidence and publish a document and if you have information about Matlock Bath, that'd be useful.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on August 29, 2016, 09:34:11 pm
Jenny, I believe the differences come because apparently castleton is on a trunk road, so the decision comes down to the highways something or other rather than HP borough.

(Trunk road being a main road through Derbyshire)
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: droid on August 29, 2016, 09:40:43 pm
The A6 through Matlock Bath is also a trunk road.....
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Mark Wright on August 29, 2016, 09:56:50 pm
The A625 hasn't been a Trunk Road since the Mam Tor stretch of it collapsed for the final time in 1979.

Mark
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: kay on August 29, 2016, 10:06:27 pm
The A6 through Matlock Bath is also a trunk road.....

No it's not. There was a major de-trunking exercise somewhere around 2000 and responsibility for a whole raft of roads was passed from Highways Agency (now Highways England) to Local Authorities. There is now no E-W trunk road between Derby and Barnsley.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524170/s150003_Network_Management_interim_update.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524170/s150003_Network_Management_interim_update.pdf)     
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: droid on August 30, 2016, 03:55:12 am
Point taken.

Can I retain some credibility by pointing out that Barnsley is NORTH of Derby, not E/W of it?
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on August 30, 2016, 08:12:57 am
Thanks for your thoughts Jenny.

What kind of "consultation" is this, in which access to the Peak's premier cave system would be so adversely affected, yet the Derbyshire Caving Association hasn't even been approached?!

This is clearly all about trying to squeeze money from people who would get no choice but to have the scheme inflicted on them - but in such a horribly inefficient way (i.e. only a tiny fraction of the revenue, if any, would actually go to the DCC) also causing widespread and unnecessary inconvenience.

Object now - or moan at leisure . . . . .
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Chocolate fireguard on August 30, 2016, 09:01:44 am

Can I retain some credibility by pointing out that Barnsley is NORTH of Derby, not E/W of it?

I'm not sure you can.
You might want to re-read and re-think kay's post.


What kind of "consultation" is this, in which access to the Peak's premier cave system would be so adversely affected, yet the Derbyshire Caving Association hasn't even been approached?!


This comes over as a bit self-absorbed.

Don't get me wrong - I'm sure the proposed scheme will badly affect Castleton cavers (I am one of them, on a good day) - but it's not realistic to believe that cavers will be on DCC's list of people to consult, let alone near the top of it.
In the great scheme of things there aren't that many of us and in the past TSG has sensibly tried to keep a low profile in the village. When sober anyway.


Object now - or moan at leisure . . . . .
Yes.



Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Mrs Trellis on August 30, 2016, 09:48:28 am
Cavers? It's about raising revenue from a tourist honeypot.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on August 30, 2016, 09:56:53 am
Thanks Chocolate Fireguard. Some good points there but I disagree that DCC shouldn't have consulted DCA.

If I submit a planning application for my house to be altered I'm expected to have consulted all sorts of experts about umpteen peripheral issues. The presence of bats is one example. If just one bat has squatted in my loft, I can't disturb it.

Given Castleton's nationally important cave system at stake (visited by a great many cavers), together with the well established (and excellent) role which DCA is well known to perform in the Peak District, I'm afraid that DCC bypassing DCA is just not good enough. At best, it reveals a lack of proper effort to consult genuinely. (At worst, one can only speculate on what devious tricks it may suggest.)

If DCC wants to muck so many people around they should at least organise a proper consultation, involving all stakeholders.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: kay on August 30, 2016, 10:03:48 am
Point taken.

Can I retain some credibility by pointing out that Barnsley is NORTH of Derby, not E/W of it?

<sigh> There is a trunk road running E-W from Derby. If you go north from Derby, there is no trunk road running E-W until you get to Barnsley.

OR

In the area between Derby (to the S) and Barnsley (to the N) there is no trunk road running E/W.

(I do know Barnsley isn't E/W of Derby, you know. I live in Yorkshire. Barnsley's in Yorkshire. Derby's down south ;) )
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: pwhole on August 30, 2016, 11:52:23 am
My letter has included a paragraph about the scientific and recreational importance of the Peak-Speedwell system to the nation - it seemed a bit overblown initially, but then I thought sod it - it's just as important a factor as any other in Castleton that they might be considering. From our perch high up on Longcliffe yesterday, we could see that yet again the field beyond Goosehill Hall was doing a brisk trade in 'overflow' parking again - at least 100 cars. I struggle to see where they would all fit if that weren't available, even if the metering is re-imposed. Obviously Peak Cavern car park is available, with a discount on the parking charge if you visit the showcaves, but if that guy only charges £3 instead of £4...
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: droid on August 30, 2016, 06:28:26 pm

Can I retain some credibility by pointing out that Barnsley is NORTH of Derby, not E/W of it?

I'm not sure you can.
You might want to re-read and re-think kay's post.


Rats......!
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: cooleycr on August 31, 2016, 01:56:40 pm
If all else fails, lets "install" some Greater Crested Newts or some bat roosts where the parking meters are intended to be fitted and then see what happens!

Sadly I can only see that this "proposal" is in fact a foregone conclusion and that the best that we (that is cavers, climbers, walkers, cyclists, shoppers etc that visit Castleton) can persuade the DCC (as opposed to the DCC!) to increase the parking timeslots to something realistic - as in all day on the Buxton/Mam Tor road and keep it to a reasonable cost, as Phil says previously, you can currently park for £3 in a field so who is going to pay more for an official spot...
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on September 01, 2016, 09:25:39 am
There is still time to send in objections (the deadline is tomorrow; Friday 2nd September). Give solid reasons and email to:

netmanadmin@derbyshire.gov.uk

This is your chance to influence the outcome. Please do help.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on September 01, 2016, 10:20:11 am
It works, they acknowledged my email within 24 hours (was probably 18hrs- as I sent it in the evening).
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Disgusted from Cornwall. on September 01, 2016, 11:54:32 am
Just fill them with bolting resin. Make sure you wear a burka, because they will possibly put cameras on them.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: bograt on September 01, 2016, 12:07:25 pm
I fancy Cool Hand Lukes approach:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bneviIHiIKs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bneviIHiIKs)
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: AR on September 01, 2016, 01:53:23 pm
Several of the meters on the Treak Cliff road have either been broken into or torched in the past, so I can't see that new meters would be any less prone to such attention.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: mch on September 01, 2016, 04:21:48 pm
I fancy Cool Hand Lukes approach:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bneviIHiIKs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bneviIHiIKs)

 :clap2:
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on September 01, 2016, 04:32:28 pm
Several of the meters on the Treak Cliff road have either been broken into or torched in the past, so I can't see that new meters would be any less prone to such attention.

Ah But they presumably want to employ some economies of scale, the more meters, the more cost effective it is to send a company to fix them all.

I read a while ago (somewhere on the internet) that DCC made a direct decision not to bother fixing the machines on the treak cliff road, but I assume that they will reinstate them.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: adam on September 01, 2016, 05:00:54 pm
They might not necessarily reinstate them. It would probably be unwise. The machines on the Treak Cliff road are much more vulnerable to vandalism than new ones in Castleton village would be. Further, charging for parking along that section of road was pointless anyway.

I can see some logic in introducing parking charges in the centre, provided there is free parking outside. This puts centre space at a premium and theoretically reduces congestion.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: kay on September 01, 2016, 07:38:06 pm
I can see some logic in introducing parking charges in the centre, provided there is free parking outside. This puts centre space at a premium and theoretically reduces congestion.

A particular problem with these proposals seems to be the lack of all-day parking. The suggestion seems to be that the main car park is not adequate, and the road-side parking is to be limited to 4hrs or less.

Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on September 02, 2016, 09:23:07 am
There is still time to send in objections (the deadline is tomorrow; Friday 2nd September). Give solid reasons and email to:

netmanadmin@derbyshire.gov.uk

This is your chance to influence the outcome. Please do help.

Last chance today . . . .

(I disagree with the sentiments immediately above. There is a finite amount of roadside space to park on in / near the centre of Castleton. Whether or not the DCC is successful in inflicting this extortion, only so many vehicles can park there. Cavers having to park further away is often not practical - due to large amounts of gear having to be moved between vehicles and caving hostel - caving projects. Apart from anything else - you've all paid for that parking space already through your vehicle excise duty. I think it's pretty obvious what's really behind this proposed scheme.)
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: cooleycr on September 02, 2016, 11:26:50 am
And that finite amount of parking space would be increased if only drivers were to learn how to park - i.e. not leave 1-2 metres front and back, the number of times I have driven around the circuit looking for a space only to be left fuming by this ignorance, if I had a Smart car I could easily park it in some of the gaps I have seen recently, (not that @ 6'4" I would easily fit in one!) I have been tempted to leave parking advice notices or parallel park bridging the gap so that the other cars cannot get out but don't wish to upset the actual locals...
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: adam on September 02, 2016, 02:53:29 pm
Apart from anything else - you've all paid for that parking space already through your vehicle excise duty.

Vehicle excise duty goes into general taxation not a restricted 'roads fund', so the notion that drivers own the roads because they pay for them is a bit of a fallacy.

I don't like the proposed scheme btw. It seems to aim to tie up all the available parking in the village and offer no alternative for free/long stay parking. Apart from the impact on cavers it will definitely hurt the shops. Last weekend I intended to go shopping in Keswick but sacked it off cos I couldn't find free parking. Maybe I'm just a tight bastard but I don't like paying for parking - it only encourages this sort of nonsense.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on September 02, 2016, 03:12:18 pm
Last weekend I intended to go shopping in Keswick but sacked it off cos I couldn't find free parking.

Same in Kirby Lonsdale and Settle. I've ended up using a space in the booth's car park in both.

One to get a selfie with a biker where I ended up buying lunch and dinner at booth's so that's fair.

the other to get breakfast, where I just went in and bought a 40p Independent newspaper! thanks for the Car parking :)

Pitlamp was right, back in the day, it was probably a tied fund. but Adam's right now, although in leased cars they still sometimes refer to the old term of "Road Fund Licence".
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on September 02, 2016, 03:15:56 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_Fund

Hypothecated apparently means pledged money by law to a specific purpose.

Quote
The Road Fund was a British Government fund designated to pay for the building and maintenance of the United Kingdom road network. Its income came originally from vehicle excise duty, until that ceased to be hypothecated for roads use in 1936, and then from government grants. It was created by the Roads Act 1920 and Finance Act 1920, and was wound up in Miscellaneous Financial Provisions Act of 1955.

The Road Fund is notable as one of the few beneficiaries of hypothecated taxation in British history, and is the root of a popular misconception that vehicle excise duty (especially when referred to as road tax) is still hypothecated. Between 1920 and 1936 the vehicle licence (tax disc) was officially known as the "Road Fund Licence", a term which is still in colloquial use today.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on September 02, 2016, 08:55:06 pm
Yeah - I've heard all the convoluted excuses about road tax supposedly not being road tax. But you have to pay the tax to have your car on the road. So that's, er, obviously road tax. Don't let them con you.

(I have absolutely no objection to paying my road tax incidentally; I get something for it in return. But I do object to getting screwed by some council for absolutely no good reason.)

The guff the DCC produced simply said the cut off date for objections is 2nd September. They'll obviously not be looking at this until Monday morning. So, as I type, I reckon you've still got just over 3 hours to get those objections in.

This is the thin end of a very nasty wedge. Nip it in the bud now - or it'll only get worse.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: blackholesun on September 02, 2016, 09:53:25 pm
(Off topic here)

Pitlamp - It's not a road tax.

No, you don't need to pay VED to have your car on the road. Not if it produces <100g of CO2 per km.

It pays for the roads no more directly than it pays for the NHS care of those affected by the pollution. In fact, it'd be more sensible to call it an emissions tax as that is what it is linked to. However, that would still be wrong. It's just a tax, like all the others.

Churchill: "Entertainments may be taxed; public houses may be taxed...and the yield devoted to the general revenue. But motorists are to be privileged for all time to have the tax on motors devoted to roads? This is an outrage upon...common sense."

I wouldn't normally comment on a seemingly minor point, but this near 100 year old misunderstanding is still shouted out windows at cyclists and pedestrians by drivers who believe, partly due to paying VED, that they should have exclusive rights to the road. This attitude can allow some to adopt an even more callous attitude to the safety of those not in armoured metal containers by thinking that they have no right be there in the first place.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: robjones on September 02, 2016, 10:24:46 pm
Bicycles (and horses, pedestrians, pogo sticks etc etc) pay exactly the same VED as other forms of road transport that produce <100g CO2 per km.

And the great majority of cyclists probably also own a car and most will have already paid VED on that form of transport...

VED is, I agree, something in the nature of a vehicle emissions tax. It is also something in the nature of a wear-and tear on the highway surface sort of tax - only the graduated nature of it over penalises lightweight vehicles and is proportionately much lower for very large / heavy vehicles.

VED would be much better abolished and merged into general taxation.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on September 03, 2016, 08:07:24 am
I really don't want to get into an argument with spokies - that's not at all what this topic is about.

As far as large numbers of the road tax payers are concerned, it's a road tax.

Anyway, this is immaterial now as the deadline for objections has passed. So I don't intend to contribute further to this one. I just hope enough cavers have made the small effort to do their bit for common sense.

Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: pwhole on September 03, 2016, 12:12:53 pm
At our monthly meeting last night we discussed this, and it appears that Hope and Bradwell are also on the list for this 'initiative' - I don't have any documents yet, but I'm sure they'll be made available soon. Of course, there are plenty of (usually empty) fields around these two villages too, so I can see a £3 'overflow parking' scheme becoming quite popular, especially if a ride into town on a hay-wagon is thrown in to induce the fatties.

I would have thought the best alternative solution (from the council's perspective) would be to buy another nearby field, tarmac it and turn it into another car-park, doubling or tripling capacity, and then reduce the overall parking fees by half to increase demand. So you get an hour for 50p, two hours for a quid, and a full day for £3. If farmers in an area like that can suddenly drop 300 cars in on any day, then it suggests to me that their sheep have far too much grazing land for their actual needs, and it would be better used for the genuine economic interest of the town, which is flogging ice-cream, beer, earrings, and (more importantly to us) getting them into the showcaves.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on September 03, 2016, 06:14:06 pm
Bradwell and Hope too? It's like a creeping cancer isn't it?
How long will it be before all our favourite spots become no go areas?

Why can't they just leave things as they are? I've always been fond of buying Christmas presents in Castleton but I'll not be in future if I'm expected to waste money in a parking meter unnecessarily.

Anyway, let's see what the outcome is. Anyone know when it'll be announced?
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Mrs Trellis on September 03, 2016, 07:55:56 pm
John, you could always park in't George and partake of some refreshment.

On December 11th we sing the village carols there.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on September 04, 2016, 07:32:55 am
I had a mis-spent youth in't George . . . .  ;)
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Moose on September 04, 2016, 10:48:21 am
As far as large numbers of the road tax payers are concerned, it's a road tax.

What you need Pitlamp is to own a vehicle where VED doesn't apply  :-\
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: nickwilliams on September 04, 2016, 11:01:25 am
 :)
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on September 04, 2016, 08:00:42 pm
Yeah - I used to. Hope you're looking after her.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: tony from suffolk on September 05, 2016, 09:25:32 am
If parking's a problem there, you can easily go to the Mendips instead. Here to help...
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: 2xw on September 05, 2016, 01:40:53 pm
If parking's a problem there, you can easily go to the Mendips instead. Here to help...

What would we do two weeks later when we'd finished it all?  ;D
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: NewStuff on September 05, 2016, 02:37:42 pm
go to the Mendips instead. Here to help...

Ewwww.... The Mendips? *shudders*
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: droid on September 05, 2016, 03:36:47 pm
If parking's a problem there, you can easily go to the Mendips instead. Here to help...

What would we do two weeks later when we'd finished it all?  ;D

Drink a gallon of Roger Wilkins' cider and you'll forget everything.....
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: steviet_scg on September 05, 2016, 03:57:06 pm
[quote name="tony from suffolk" post=267598 timestamp=1473063932]
If parking's a problem there, you can easily go to the Mendips instead. Here to help...
[/quote]

What would we do two weeks later when we'd finished it all?  ;D

Start digging ....

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on September 05, 2016, 04:06:42 pm
Drink a gallon of Roger Wilkins' cider and you'll forget everything.....

A new technique for the Men in Black (all the mendip cavers must be aliens!)
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on October 10, 2016, 09:03:29 pm
the saga continues...

Dcc have deferred their decision to november due to the amount of complaints, but it would be great to get more to them :)

This week on Friday 14th October there will be a meeting of the peak district national park authority (who are also against, and will probably be putting forward planning objections).

This meeting will be open to the public and will be held at 10am, friday 14th oct.
address: Board Room, Aldern House, Barlow Road, Bakewell. DE45 1AE.

More details may be found here http://www.castletonvillage.co.uk (http://www.castletonvillage.co.uk) and will probably be updated regularly.

I will try and get the day off work.


Please see item 13 on the agenda https://democracy.peakdistrict.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=132&MId=1450&Ver=4 (https://democracy.peakdistrict.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=132&MId=1450&Ver=4)
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: heavypetal on October 11, 2016, 12:57:46 pm
Submitted another rejection letter to Mike Ashworth! Al, I'm free on Friday more or less, let me know if you're stuck or want to travel over.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on October 11, 2016, 02:36:30 pm
Terry, I've now secured the day off. thinking of Staying out, then at least I save a bit of time travelling in the morning rush (Glossop and Stockport can both be a pain in the morning).

Item number 13 (I guess) will be heard later on.

If anyone wants to send any more objections to the meeting of the Planners (for the national park) then let me know.

Their document (for the agenda) already seems to be quite comprehensive but if you have any ideas of any things they've missed then it would be great to hear them.  see linked agenda item 13 here https://democracy.peakdistrict.gov.uk/documents/s13204/TN.pdf
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on October 14, 2016, 10:09:59 am
Item 13 starts at about 3pm, they say that's an estimate, so I'll return at 2pm to see what's what.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: alastairgott on October 14, 2016, 10:50:50 pm
A good meeting. 4 castleton residents attending, plus me. 2 were parish council and others were there due to other planning concerns.

All in all, as said, a good meeting. A "stong opposition" will be put forward from pdnpa.

Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: mch on October 14, 2016, 11:27:03 pm
All in all, as said, a good meeting. A "stong opposition" will be put forward from pdnpa.

Well, that's a positive. Well done for taking the trouble to attend the meeting and report back.
Title: Re: Castleton problems
Post by: Pitlamp on October 15, 2016, 07:44:05 am
Well done Alastair and thanks for all your efforts to bury this iniquitous proposal.