Author Topic: VIP caving trip to GG - press release  (Read 16912 times)

Offline Brains

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2016, 05:50:06 pm »
It's also a favourite tactic of journalists to put in sniping and exaggerated negative references to people that have the temerity to disagree.

Sadly not only professional pen pushers, nor just those on one side of an argument

Offline droid

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2016, 05:57:31 pm »
Don't know about you, but I don't have a problem with discussing stuff. Some, however, seem unable to accept with good grace that their 'facts' (read: hopes, assumptions) might not be shared by others. I do have a problem with that.

Some will see various actions as a major coup. They will make bloody sure that their name is associated with that coup. That too is unnecessary: it's the result that's important, not the people who get that result. That's because you can be very sure that if there are negative consequences, they will keep a very low profile.....
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Online T pot 2

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2016, 06:11:02 pm »
Tim go Tim go ! raising the profile re the sport of caving can only be a good thing. Keep up the good work.

T pot

Online Ian Adams

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2016, 07:08:30 pm »
The Gaping Gill trip was nothing short of superb.

It is a huge credit to Tim who has taken his role within the BCA very seriously. This kind of dynamic, pro-active (and voluntary) work is exactly what the BCA central core needs to push forward the mandate it has been given by the members (us).

I agree with other comments made earlier that it is fantastic to see politicians (and a leading QC) actually getting underground to see what it is all about.

Very good work Tim and thank you for organising this and making it happen.

 :)

Ian
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Online JasonC

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2016, 09:46:53 pm »
Quote
The two politicians, former Shadow Home Secretary David Davis, MP for Howden and Haltemprice, and David Rutley, who sits for Macclesfield, entered the cave via Bar Pot ...

Leaving the politics aside for a moment, I'm interested that you got two MPs of mature years (certainly Davis is, I don't know Rutley) who apparently have no caving experience down 2 fair-sized ladder pitches and back up.

How did that go ??

Bar Pot would be a fairly intense first trip for a fit twenty-year-old, so I'm really curious as to how they coped.  And was any unparliamentary language used ?

Offline badger

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2016, 10:25:19 pm »
this I feel is going to be a slightly wandering reply,
 firstly well done on a successful caving trip regardless to its reasons, as already highlighted a big first trip for those who have never caved.
I have always been slightly divided on my view,  for or against, but due to difficulties in the past with permits in the dales would have voted for, I am not opposed to a permit system as long as it is easy and fair to all cavers, this did not seem to be the case in the dales, the system in place was out dated and verged on making it as difficult as possible for those who where not buddies, the other issue for us from the south is its a very long way to go with a permit for a said cave only not to be able to do due to wet weather, not that I know what caves you can do wet/dry without making the necessary enquiries.
I also think that the case/opinion made by Dinah rose makes a lot of sense, specially when put with the idea that NE have said you can go caving but only till there is no natural light, to me the answer is either yes or no, natural light seems to be a red herring.
People keep on harping on about the vote ( not sure what percentage voted and how it equated) but the problem with stats is on how there presented, let say only 20% voted, and out of the 20% 80% percent where pro, now does that give a mandate, because the other 80% could not be bothered to vote or is that also taken then they must be pro,
however back to topic, I have read the stuff Tim and his team have produced and would say they have put a lot of work into it, I would also like to believe that the pro team has the same concerns and issues on conservation and liaising with landowners, (me having not seeked landowners views would not know)
I too also have concerns about both, however what I don't think will happen is if crow applies your going to get the whole of the uk caving population descending upon the dales to go caving, I would suspect it will be barely noticeable, the caves that are frequently visited, will still be, those that are less visited will stay the same, I could be wrong.
To the case whether Tim is operating within his BCA remit, I have had 2 personal e-mails to this, one saying he is, one saying he is not, me I don't know as I do not know what remit he was given but by what has been said in this topic it would seem he is within the remit he set out with the BCA.  maybe that an interupatation thing I don't know because I have not seen any document to suggest either way.
But like I started the ramble well done on a successful trip



Offline David Rose

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2016, 10:57:32 pm »
David Rutley has done a few trips before, including Giants Hole round trip. Both MPs have been active climbers and Alpinists and maintain a good level of fitness. David Davis is a member of the Alpine Club, which requires applicants to have done a minimum of 20 Alpine route routes to be accepted. He also served as a member of the SAS, with all that implies in terms of fitness and endurance. There are MPs who might not fare as well in Bar Pot, but they both managed it comfortably.

Offline Madness

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2016, 11:19:16 pm »
I'll add my tuppence worth!

Well done to Tim and the BCA for organising this trip. It can only do good in raising the profile of caving and in helping non Cavers understand a bit more of what caving is about.

I know next to nothing about the vote that gave the BCA the 'mandate', but they are acting for the majority who bothered to vote - isn't that what democracy is about?

All those criticising the BCA for campaigning for access should remember that if the Ramblers Association and others had not campaigned so vigorously for the CROW act in the first place, then this possibility of improved access would not exist.

What needs to be remembered is that any law should not be used as a 'big stick to hit landowners over the head with'. The caving community needs to be very careful with regards to keeping landowners happy. Landowners may ultimately have to allow you to walk to a cave on their land, but what's to stop them bulldozing, dynamiting or concreting an entrance.

We need to tread carefully,  but in the right direction. I don't think that any representative body is in a better position to do this than the BCA.

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2016, 09:49:30 am »
What needs to be remembered is that any law should not be used as a 'big stick to hit landowners over the head with'. The caving community needs to be very careful with regards to keeping landowners happy.
A major benefit for land owners is that if CRoW does apply to caving, then the land owner's liability for harm caused by natural underground features as well as from access features (surface block house, placed anchors, shored up passage, etc) is removed, thus liberating the land owner from an apparent major concern. 

Landowners may ultimately have to allow you to walk to a cave on their land...
I think the 'may' is wrong here.  If the location is on access land, then we already have the right to walk to the entrance and also to go someway down it.  The debate is over whether we have the right to go further down the cave (to the extent of the edge of access land). 

Our campaign is not about extending access land across the surface; it is to obtain recognition that any designated access land already encompasses below as well as above and on the surface of the land - as it does for every other piece of land related legislation (for example see Section 44 of the Infrastructure Act 2015 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/7/section/44/enacted).

... but what's to stop them bulldozing, dynamiting or concreting an entrance.
Nothing but why should they?  (There is a power within CRoW to reopen access but pragmatically it would take a mighty effort to get the relevant authority to use it.)

Offline Alex

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2016, 10:16:11 am »
Also as most caves are triple SI, bulldozing or concreting an entrance is illegal.
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline Madness

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2016, 12:27:53 pm »

I think the 'may' is wrong here.  If the location is on access land, then we already have the right to walk to the entrance and also to go someway down it.  The debate is over whether we have the right to go further down the cave (to the extent of the edge of access land). 

Sorry, a poor choice of wording on my part.

Offline MJenkinson

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2016, 12:51:24 pm »
Thanks Tim.

Offline Clive G

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2016, 12:55:03 pm »
The profile of caving needs raising but also the issue of conservation. Sadly the caves in the Dales have suffered badly from fairly free access. I started caving 50 years ago and in my early days remember wondering why Easter Grotto in Easegill was so badly damaged when there was no reason for the damage to occur. Most recently I visited the areas around GG main chamber and, again, cannot understand why there is so much damage to the formations. This was the case when we also visited more remote locations in the cave, and saw  mud had been hurled at pristine stal.  Caves aren't just playgrounds, they are an unusual part of our environment. In Devon where free access to Pridhamsleigh as been the norm for many years all the formations in the system have been destroyed except those accessible by diving. So whilst free access might seem a great idea we do need to temper that with protection and respect for the caves.

Tim's initiative on behalf of BCA is just what is needed in respect of the CRoW Act and shows caving's national body, the British Caving Association, working on behalf of the interests of its members, unlike the original debate when, for want of a solution to the problem, the previous national negotiating body, the National Caving Association, rather sat on the fence and helped leave the situation ambiguous.

I personally would like to see a return of cave science to a more central stage in order that members of the BCA are better informed of aspects of cave science and helped to take up an interest in following scientific recording and studies of the cave systems in which they are interested. This interest I tried to foster through the 'Discovering . . .' series in Caves & Caving (87-91 inc.).

As Pete rightly points out there are a number of caves where managed access and an intelligent approach to handling the idea of making shortcuts through particularly attractive sections of naturally remote and difficult of access passages can help slow down the rate of attrition by which speleothems and unspoilt sediment floors are otherwise lost forever.

Left alone, cave entrances, in the state in which they are originally found, usually deter the novice or non-caver, but once opened up 'comfortably' to facilitate ease of access and carrying out work inside the cave, tend to invite all comers. Thereby these artificially opened up caves are, from time to time, in need of careful management to ensure that those entering do not harm themselves or the cave. There may also be fixed aids installed inside in some of the longer systems and these aids require regular inspection and replacement when necessary by a responsible body which manages the cave.

Scientific work inside caves also needs managing and coordination since otherwise the work of one scientist or group could interfere with or simply replicate that of another. This is especially the case where hydrological tests are carried out using various dyes and speleothem or sediment samples removed for laboratory analysis.

So, in order for cave access to be fully recognised under the CRoW Act, the question of the right of landowners to designate certain systems on their land as being managed caves, either through open or controlled access, and/or create and cause to be run show caves which are opened to the public under certain terms of entry and safety provisions, needs to be fully addressed and taken into account.

Offline ah147

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2016, 12:05:42 pm »
Cracking work Tim! You ne any help from a young (or a few) younger cavers I bet I could round some up.


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Online Badlad

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2016, 08:33:27 pm »
FYI - A bit of local interest in the MPs caving trip.  Generally good for caving I think,but please remember the press write the stories their own way.

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/14188343.MPs_make_Christmas_visit_to_Gaping_Gill/

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/environment/fighting-for-access-to-yorkshire-s-underground-wonders-1-7660092
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 08:34:17 pm by Pegasus »

Offline David Rose

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2016, 09:02:25 am »
I gotta say, I do detect a certain resemblance between our press release and the story in the Craven Herald. That is to say, it's identical apart from the first paragraph. But I suppose like all local papers, they are thinly resourced, and it's good they used it. The Defra quote in the Post story is disappointing.

Offline bograt

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2016, 03:14:01 pm »
I gotta say, I do detect a certain resemblance between our press release and the story in the Craven Herald.

I thought that was what press releases were for?
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Offline Wayland Smith

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2016, 04:01:30 pm »
It does seem that now DEFRA and a few weeks back National Resources Wales
have stated their position in a clear (if disappointing) manner.

"CROW does not apply to caving, now go away and stop bothering us."
"Go back to parliament and get them to sort it out!"  :wall:

Offline Rhys

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2016, 04:17:18 pm »
It does seem that now DEFRA and a few weeks back National Resources Wales
have stated their position in a clear (if disappointing) manner.

"CROW does not apply to caving, now go away and stop bothering us."
"Go back to parliament and get them to sort it out!"  :wall:

Or alternatively "See you in court".

Offline Wayland Smith

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2016, 04:30:15 pm »
Or alternatively "See you in court".

I think the problem would be pushing (and paying) for this to go through the judicial system
far enough to get a binding result.

Offline Rhys

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2016, 04:36:56 pm »
Or alternatively "See you in court".

I think the problem would be pushing (and paying) for this to go through the judicial system
far enough to get a binding result.

Agreed. Also, a judge might dodge the "open-air" issue altogether and throw an individual case out on different grounds entirely, if they get the chance.

Offline Wayland Smith

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2016, 04:52:23 pm »
Yes
I suspect that the first hurdle would be to get a judge to even hear the case, let alone make a ruling.

Offline ah147

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2016, 04:54:25 pm »
I think we should crowdfund a private case against DEFRA.


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Offline martinr

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2016, 06:11:27 pm »
I think we should crowdfund a private case against DEFRA.


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Costs ...... vary a lot but we usually advise clients to budget around £3,000-6,000 plus VAT for the permission stage. It can be lower - but seldom less than £1,500. Larger and more complex cases can take up much more time and therefore cost a lot more.

These costs get you to the stage of the judge deciding on paper whether you have permission to proceed or not.

If you are refused permission but renew to an oral hearing, the costs of this will normally be in the region of £3,000 to £4,000 plus VAT including counsel's fees. Rules of court make it unlikely that you will be exposed to the other side's costs even if they turn up and successfully oppose you at the oral hearing. However you are exposed to the costs that the defending party has been put to in providing written so-called "summary grounds for contesting the claim". We have experience of a huge variability in the level of what other parties claim and can give you more detailed advice if required, but amounts actually awarded should be relatively small.  It is sensible to budget a figure in the £1,000-3,000 bracket.

Once permission is granted, we normally estimate the costs from then on to the conclusion of a one-day hearing in the High Court at £10,000-15,000 plus VAT for each side. It can [be] less than this range, and sometimes much  more, but this is a useful guide. The exact amount will again depend upon many factors, including what the other side says by way of evidence, what level of barristers are used and the complexity of the issues. For example, use of a QC in addition to one's junior barrister will increase costs to considerably above that bracket. The level of costs is something to keep under continual review.


If you lose, it's £30,000 And that only covers the first day in court. I can well imagine this lasting several days, so potentially it could cost £100,000 or more?

Good luck crowdfunding that amount

Offline ah147

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Re: VIP caving trip to GG - press release
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2016, 06:12:56 pm »
£30000 is a fiver a caver. £100000 is approximately 20.

I'll put up a hundred!


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