Author Topic: Guardian article  (Read 14190 times)

Offline nickwilliams

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"Economics is simply the branch of sociology that deals with people trading items and the fact that they use more numbers does not make it anymore of a science."

Offline mch

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2016, 08:14:38 pm »
Hmmm . . . not a very encouraging response from Defra was it?

Offline Brains

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2016, 08:18:15 pm »
The article itself was quite encouraging, despite the unfortunate connotations of the headline. The last comments from DEFRA seem a little out of keeping with the state of the times

Offline martinr

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2016, 11:47:15 am »
Quote
Tim Allen, 55, is leading a British Caving Association (BCA) campaign to get the Countryside and Rights of Way (Crow) Act 2000 extended to include caves

BCA campaigning for  CROW to apply to caving? So does that mean the BCA constitution was changed when I wasn't looking? Just asking, I've not been following the CROW debate for a while.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2016, 12:10:36 pm »
It's interesting to see an open debate in progress on the comments section of that item. It is also interesting to see how cavers are debating the issue, whereas non-cavers on the whole are totally uninterested in access, and only wish to comment on cavers being rescued. I am not sure what that tells us, other than perhaps we need to remind ourselves that in the grand scheme of things, cavers are simply tiny insects crawling on the elephant's bottom, and are of little consequence to most people.

Offline sambo

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2016, 12:39:39 pm »
I do find it infuriating in the comments section, how some of the general public feel they can speak on behalf of us in the rescue teams. 

Offline ianball11

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2016, 01:10:10 pm »
Not a great day to be meeting on the fells if the rain is like it is in the East today!  Mart Pellow

Offline kay

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2016, 06:26:27 pm »
Letters to the editor sparked by the Guardian article:
Chair of Lancashire Access Forum feels DEFRA's position does not reflect will of parliament, Frank Pearson sums up the arguments of the "pro" camp and mentions increasing conservation awareness in recent years, Jean Perraton brings in experience of canoeists and swimmers (both specifically excluded by CRoW) and says that "voluntary agreements" as advocated in the article by DEFRA have not worked well.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/30/caving-and-the-right-to-roam-above-and-below-ground

Online Cookie

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2016, 10:33:44 pm »
Quote
Tim Allen, 55, is leading a British Caving Association (BCA) campaign to get the Countryside and Rights of Way (Crow) Act 2000 extended to include caves

BCA campaigning for  CROW to apply to caving? So does that mean the BCA constitution was changed when I wasn't looking? Just asking, I've not been following the CROW debate for a while.

No it hasn't been changed.

In fact the BCA interpretation of the Constitution was clarified at the 2015 AGM when it passed the following motion with virtually everybody voting in favour.

"This meeting confirms that the Constitution allows BCA to seek clarification from DEFRA and Natural England on their existing guidance on The CRoW Act and its application to caving."

I believe this doesn't allow the National Council to pursue a very public campaign. 

Whether you are pro CRoW or not, it must be a serious concern that the National Council is not following the will of the AGM.

I would like to hear Councils justification and intend to raise this at the next Council meeting.
Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

Offline complex

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2016, 11:05:23 pm »
It seems that the government's position is unchanged, and was clearly re-stated yesterday in a written answer to a question from a member of Parliament:

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2016-03-18.31768.h

 "Section 2(1) of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 provides for a right of access on foot for the purposes of open-air recreation to land which has been mapped as open country (mountain, moor, heath and down) and registered common land. The Government has no plans to extend the definition of mapped land under that Act to apply to caves."

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2016, 01:01:31 am »
Ha, yesterday.. The same time they were seeking to privatise the Land Registry. That'll be fun for arranging access agreements. Find out who the landowner is from a profit making company. Mind, it's not like the Land Registry doesn't make a profit, it just happens it's profit to the taxpayer- yay me, not some nob with an account in the Virgin Islands who goes for an occasional Country Supper with Cameron and possibly a pugilistic ex BBC motoring correspondent and/or flame locked ex now reinstated media lady and various other ner do Wells from the Cotswolds.

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2016, 01:09:03 am »
Glad I got that off my chest.

Offline SamT

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2016, 08:59:41 am »
 :clap2:

Offline Beardy

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2016, 09:17:21 am »
No it hasn't been changed.

In fact the BCA interpretation of the Constitution was clarified at the 2015 AGM when it passed the following motion with virtually everybody voting in favour.

"This meeting confirms that the Constitution allows BCA to seek clarification from DEFRA and Natural England on their existing guidance on The CRoW Act and its application to caving."

I believe this doesn't allow the National Council to pursue a very public campaign. 

Whether you are pro CRoW or not, it must be a serious concern that the National Council is not following the will of the AGM.

I would like to hear Councils justification and intend to raise this at the next Council meeting.

Hang on a minute -

I suspect that the 1402 people that voted yes to the poll  which asked

"Should BCA, on your behalf, campaign for The Countryside and Rights of Way Act to apply to going underground?"

Would actually want to get what they voted for - and would be somewhat annoyed with the gerrymandering that appears to be being tried by those with sour grapes over the issue.

I suspect that the numbers of cavers that voted in this recent poll were several factors greater than those that installed the constitution.  The constitution should be changed asap in line with the majorities view.


Offline MJenkinson

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2016, 09:48:30 am »
Hang on a minute -

I suspect that the 1402 people that voted yes to the poll  which asked

"Should BCA, on your behalf, campaign for The Countryside and Rights of Way Act to apply to going underground?"

Would actually want to get what they voted for - and would be somewhat annoyed with the gerrymandering that appears to be being tried by those with sour grapes over the issue.

I suspect that the numbers of cavers that voted in this recent poll were several factors greater than those that installed the constitution.  The constitution should be changed asap in line with the majorities view.

 :thumbsup:

Offline mch

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2016, 09:49:00 am »

I suspect that the numbers of cavers that voted in this recent poll were several factors greater than those that installed the constitution.  The constitution should be changed asap in line with the majorities view.


 :thumbsup: democracy in action!

Online Cookie

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2016, 09:49:43 am »
This motion was passed after the the poll and with full knowledge of the result.

The wording on the poll also said that the Constitution would be change first, before any campaign.

Until the Constitution is changed this motion set out the limit of what the AGM thought possible in trying to satisfy the wish of the membership.
Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

Offline mch

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2016, 09:51:30 am »
Until the Constitution is changed this motion set out the limit of what the AGM thought possible in trying to satisfy the wish of the membership.

So what is the timetable for amending the BCA Constitution?

Offline martinr

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2016, 11:25:25 am »
It seems that the government's position is unchanged, and was clearly re-stated yesterday in a written answer to a question from a member of Parliament:

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2016-03-18.31768.h

 "Section 2(1) of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 provides for a right of access on foot for the purposes of open-air recreation to land which has been mapped as open country (mountain, moor, heath and down) and registered common land. The Government has no plans to extend the definition of mapped land under that Act to apply to caves."

a right of access on foot
What happens when you reach a crawl or a squeeze? What about sumps? And pitches would all have to be laddered, no abseiling but you can prussick back up?

Offline thomasr

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2016, 12:06:19 pm »
Are we all clear what : OPEN AIR : means ? A quick google search says outside of a  building facility or structure  ie man made . Surely not a cave which has abundant fresh open air . [A mine would be different as it would be man made ] So did the legislaters have all this in mind when drawing up the  right to roam act ?

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2016, 12:21:12 pm »
Quote
"This meeting confirms that the Constitution allows BCA to seek clarification from DEFRA and Natural England on their existing guidance on The CRoW Act and its application to caving."

I believe this doesn't allow the National Council to pursue a very public campaign. 

The argument about the constitution is just sophistry by those that feel decisions should be made by committees rather than the general membership...

The majority of members want the BCA to be active in campaigning for greater access under CRoW legislation...nit-picking tiny pedantic constitutional points that most BCA members have no interest in is just foot dragging...

Online Cookie

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2016, 12:47:09 pm »
Until the Constitution is changed this motion set out the limit of what the AGM thought possible in trying to satisfy the wish of the membership.

So what is the timetable for amending the BCA Constitution?

See http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=about:documents:bca_constitution

Quote from: BCA Constitution
8.4. Notice of any matters to be raised at a General Meeting of the Association, including all proposals for constitutional change, must reach the Secretary by midnight on the day of the National Council meeting preceding the AGM.

Which this year is April 9th.
Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2016, 12:50:42 pm »
"This meeting confirms that the Constitution allows BCA to seek clarification from DEFRA and Natural England on their existing guidance on The CRoW Act and its application to caving."

I believe this doesn't allow the National Council to pursue a very public campaign. 

The constitution does not need amending, it already allows for the Clarification to be sought in either a public or a private manner. The meeting merely pointed this out.

http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=about:documents:bca_constitution

Section 3 talks about the aims of the Association.
 3.1 is about "encouraging the development of access arrangements at national, regional and club level in accordance with national, regional or club practice."
 3.3 is about acting as "a national spokesman and negotiating body on behalf of Members, when required by them to do so; to protect members' interests; and provide facilities, when required, to co-ordinate effort where interests overlap. "

Section 13 goes on to talk about interpretation- in that they say that the general meeting shall be the final interpreter of the constitution. They have interpreted that clarification can indeed be sought, and it seems in this case in any manner (whether that be public or private!).

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2016, 01:01:41 pm »
And isn't it a bit late now.

Don't they say "after the horse has bolted"?

Should you have raised your concerns at the meeting? maybe you did?
 Afraid I wasn't there either.

Online Cookie

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2016, 01:10:15 pm »
I was at the meeting.

As per section 13 the AGM interpreted the Constitution and passed that motion to instruct Council at the 2015 AGM.

I kind of expected the Council to abide by the AGM's instruction.
Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services