Author Topic: Guardian article  (Read 14071 times)

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2016, 08:18:19 pm »
The details of the way things develop in the account resonate with me as exactly how real cavers work things out. No bluster, no spin, no half-truths - just what normal people do to get things done.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2016, 09:00:57 pm »
The details of the way things develop in the account resonate with me as exactly how real cavers work things out. No bluster, no spin, no half-truths - just what normal people do to get things done.

So your implication is that people for open access are not "real" cavers, use half truths, bluster and spin whereas "real" cavers, those that favour gates, permits etc do not?
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Badlad

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2016, 09:02:11 pm »
At Draenen, the original entrance was dug without landowner consent, in fact the diggers were told they would not be granted permission, but they continued anyway.




Quote
As far as I am aware, no cavers ever asked permission to dig on the Pwll Du hillside.


Quote
Following a digging session
, we would call into the Lamb and Fox for a pint. Brian, the landlord, was obviously curious as to why a group of muddy people were turning up at his pub, late on a Thursday night.
Quote
When we told him what we were doing, his response was 'Oh, you're alright going there'.

AFTER the breakthrough, when there were suddenly lots and lots of cavers crossing the land and going into Draenen, an individual at
Quote
the Coal Authority (the landowners)
was approached unofficially and sounded out about the situation. His response was, as Clive said,
Quote
'If you ask officially for permission to cross the land, you will be denied.



Sorry, I may be wrong, and it wasn't the point I was making anyway, but it doesn't sound like you had permission from the Landowner at all.  Even if Brian at the local pub was in a position to give you permission on behalf of the landowner you had clearly been digging there before he gave that permission.  You admit yourself that if you asked for permission it would be denied.

My information came from a respected and trusted source and I have passed that onto Clive.

Offline droid

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2016, 09:19:02 pm »
The details of the way things develop in the account resonate with me as exactly how real cavers work things out. No bluster, no spin, no half-truths - just what normal people do to get things done.

So your implication is that people for open access are not "real" cavers, use half truths, bluster and spin whereas "real" cavers, those that favour gates, permits etc do not?

It implies to me that 'real cavers' actually speak to people that can help them in a reasonable way, rather than standing on a soapbox and demanding their 'rights'

I'd bet even the saintly NewStuff has done things this way on occasion.....
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2016, 09:27:43 pm »
The details of the way things develop in the account resonate with me as exactly how real cavers work things out. No bluster, no spin, no half-truths - just what normal people do to get things done.

So your implication is that people for open access are not "real" cavers, use half truths, bluster and spin whereas "real" cavers, those that favour gates, permits etc do not?
No, that's YOUR implication.

Offline TomTom

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2016, 09:42:57 pm »



Simply put I'm glad there are those willing to put in their time to action on the simple question we were asked by the British Caving Association
http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=about:start

Now I apologise for interfering in this game of who can get the last word so I'll leave you to it. I'm just happy that there's progress in the caving community, where would we be without that!

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2016, 09:48:09 pm »
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 10:51:26 pm by Pegasus, Reason: embedded video (remove the s after http) »

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2016, 10:07:42 pm »
Many thanks for that clarification Badlad, maybe BCA should be looking into advice and 'best practice' for diggers ?. (I can just imagine what response this will get from Mendip !!!)

Landowners and cavers should be strongly made aware that CRoW does NOT apply to surface diggers and landowners rights and existing arrangements remain in force in that respect.

There is already a document which lays out the best practice for digging, clearly it varies from place to place. And time to time but clear guidance has been given for SSSI digging. It is good guidence to follow for digs which are not on SSSI land.

Here for yorkshire- http://cncc.org.uk/publications/documents/CNCC_Digging_Guidlines.pdf

Here for derbyshire- http://thedca.org.uk/images/dca/publications/leaflets/Cave-Digging.pdf

Don't really know about other locations.

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2016, 11:35:51 pm »
Quote
...'real cavers' actually speak to people that can help them in a reasonable way, rather than standing on a soapbox and demanding their 'rights'.

Amen

Offline Huge

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #84 on: April 05, 2016, 12:18:26 am »
Sorry, I may be wrong, and it wasn't the point I was making anyway, but it doesn't sound like you had permission from the Landowner at all.  Even if Brian at the local pub was in a position to give you permission on behalf of the landowner you had clearly been digging there before he gave that permission.  You admit yourself that if you asked for permission it would be denied.

I realise it wasn't the point you were making Badlad but you said

At Draenen, the original entrance was dug without landowner consent, in fact the diggers were told they would not be granted permission, but they continued anyway.

My reading of this is that you are saying the dig was started (not on the surface btw but inside the cave), then, while still in the process of digging out the entrance, we found out that we would not be granted permission but carried on digging anyway. As I've pointed out, that wasn't the case. If you've been told something different, you've been misled.

My information came from a respected and trusted source and I have passed that onto Clive.

I'd be greatful if you would pass that information onto me as well. Unless the source is one of the diggers, they wouldn't KNOW. A little while ago someone stated on this forum that members of Morgannwg CC had removed the gate from Blaen Onnue Quarry Pot. I pointed out that MCC had nothing at all to do with it, it was in fact another club that had done the deed. Much like you, he said his information came from a respected and trusted source. Chinese whispers?

I'm not trying to score points Badlad, just put the record straight, warts and all. What you stated was wrong.

Offline Clive G

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2016, 09:05:24 pm »
At Draenen, the original entrance was dug without landowner consent, in fact the diggers were told they would not be granted permission, but they continued anyway.

I know Clive has already commented on this but I feel that I also, being one of the Draenen diggers, have to point out that this statement is incorrect.

The then landowner, did not tell us or anyone else for that matter, that permission to dig would not be granted if asked for. So we did not 'continue anyway' with the dig, in the knowledge that the landowner would not grant permission.

As far as I am aware, no cavers ever asked permission to dig on the Pwll Du hillside. Before we started digging at Draenen, a few sites had already been opened up by cavers. Sites such as Tumble East Resurgence, Ogof Cadno Gwal (only a few metres from the Draenen entrance) and Draenen itself, which had been opened up from the surface and dug to a length of a few metres by members of two other clubs, neither of whom, as far as I know, asked permission to dig.

Following a digging session, we would call into the Lamb and Fox for a pint. Brian, the landlord, was obviously curious as to why a group of muddy people were turning up at his pub, late on a Thursday night. When we told him what we were doing, his response was 'Oh, you're alright going there'.

. . .


Well, actually, on 28th June 1989, I had an informal telephone conversation (duration 39' 30") - introducing myself as a cave explorer interested in subterranean tunnels in the Pwll Du area - with the Opencast Executive ( http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/record?catid=3800&catln=3 ) of the British Coal Corporation ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Coal ), based at Aberaman, who seemed to be the body in control at Pwll Du at the time. We had a further telephone conversation (duration 2' 20") on 6th July. I should expect that their administrative records have been archived and kept on file somewhere. So, somewhere, in a telephone log, there should be a record of the two conversations.

My earlier conversation with the nearest occupier of the land, Brian Lewis, around June 1988, coupled with the one with the Opencast Executive in July 1989, forms the basis for the point I am making that permission to look for subterranean tunnels in the area had been broached and obtained verbally, if not in writing.

I was a member of Morgannwg Caving Club when these conversations took place.

As far as I understand things, the next informal telephone conversation took place with the Coal Authority. The point being here that the Coal Authority was brought into being by the Coal Industry Act 1994 ( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/21/contents ) and became active on 31st October 1994 ( http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20081107203027/coal.gov.uk/resources/environment/historyofminewater.cfm ) - after the main Ogof Draenen cave system had been entered for the first time on Thursday 6th October 1994.

Prior to all this no one seems to know the situation, but any surviving members from the British Nylon Spinners' Speleology Sub-section and/or Cwmbran Caving Club and Brynmawr Caving Club during the 1950s-70s may well know a little more about how the initial surface digging was done on Gilwern Hill and at Pwll Du.

Offline Clive G

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2016, 09:44:49 pm »
Why can't you add an edit once you've cooked and eaten tea after making a posting?!

CORRECTION:

My earlier conversation with the nearest occupier of the land, Brian Lewis, around June 1988, coupled with the two with the Opencast Executive in June and July 1989, forms the basis for the point I am making that permission to look for subterranean tunnels in the area had been broached and obtained verbally, if not in writing.

Offline Alex

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #87 on: April 12, 2016, 09:51:10 pm »
Yep Tom first line on the BCA page "maintain and seek to improve access to caves and sites of speleological interest."
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #88 on: April 13, 2016, 10:38:59 am »
Quote
...'real cavers' actually speak to people that can help them in a reasonable way, rather than standing on a soapbox and demanding their 'rights'.

Would it be fair to assume that when walking a public footpath...you stop at each farm and landowner and ask permission before continuing?
After all it would be wrong to "demand" your rights as granted in law...and far more sensible to speak to each individual landowner...

Offline droid

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #89 on: April 13, 2016, 03:56:35 pm »

Would it be fair to assume that when walking a public footpath...you stop at each farm and landowner and ask permission before continuing?
After all it would be wrong to "demand" your rights as granted in law...and far more sensible to speak to each individual landowner...

I was referring to the situation we have now, not the situation we might have in the future.....lol

And it has already been explained that permission will still be needed for digging (which is what was being discussed in this part of the thread) even if CRoW *did* apply to caves.....
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Guardian article
« Reply #90 on: April 13, 2016, 03:59:11 pm »
Never argue with a Time Lord!  ;)