Author Topic: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?  (Read 10966 times)

Online droid

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2016, 09:19:45 pm »
Not trying to justify anything - just pointing out that the "campaign" has the potential to really mess things up.

It does.

It also has the potential to vastly improve (read 'simplify') the access process.

Which of these scenarios comes to pass will, in my opinion, depend on whether the main players are prepared to listen to and take into account ALL the views and concerns.

Because CRoW-Cautious members (and ex-members) of this forum might not be the tiny minority some would like to believe: 37% of those who voted, voted 'no'.....
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Offline nearlywhite

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2016, 09:21:35 pm »
Not trying to justify anything - just pointing out that the "campaign" has the potential to really mess things up.

I think at this point the anti-CRoW camp is doing a really good job of trying to mess things up by spreading scare stories over a debate they've already lost. What should be happening is the caving community uniting behind this effort (most cavers ARE in favour) and people who have concerns over landowner relations come onside to try and minimise the impact of a campaign - not foretell disaster and overblow the whole thing. It's only caving and most people don't care.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2016, 09:27:45 pm »
I think at this point the anti-CRoW camp is doing a really good job of trying to mess things up by spreading scare stories over a debate they've already lost. What should be happening is the caving community uniting behind this effort (most cavers ARE in favour) and people who have concerns over landowner relations come onside to try and minimise the impact of a campaign - not foretell disaster and overblow the whole thing. It's only caving and most people don't care.
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Online droid

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2016, 09:28:16 pm »
By pointing out potential problems, the 'anti-CRoW' (I prefer the term 'CRoW-Cautious') camp ARE contributing.

It is the 'CRoW as Nirvana' camp that might well cock things up mightily unless a rather more judicious attitude than has been exemplified here is shown.
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Offline bograt

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2016, 09:29:25 pm »
I have reliably heard of cave landowners being "disappointed", to put it mildly, by this "campaign".

Have you heard it from the landowner?
Has anyone asked why they are "disappointed" ?

Because of course, all landowners think the way bograt does.....

Is that sarcasm or irony?, I sometimes have difficulty differentiating, Bograt has had many years experience in 'the ways of the caver', maybe a little education of landowners into these mysteries would go a long way ?, always 'assuming' (I dislike that word) the will is there on behalf of the caving fraternity ---. He has also had over 30 years experience in 'the ways of the landowner' ---.

The reason for "disappointment" has been covered many times.

Please point me in the direction of this coverage.

I can well understand that the owner of Drws Cefn (as an example - not guessing whom you may be referring to Peter) would be against the clarification in favour of access, but as non cavers they must speak as they find. Even if that is from an anti-caver management group that provide their main link to the caving community.
Foe every anecdote you can find one of the opposite nature. That is the way of anecdotes, and why they arent reliable as justification...

Wondered how far this thread would go before DC came up, although relevant to the overall debate. I consider this to be a minor factor to the overall situation. As I understand it the landowners are fairly recent and took on the land after the CRoW act was enacted, no farming or land management activities are practiced, the landowner is acting on the advice of the established cave access body, maybe that advice is flawed?

BCA, Constitutions, Extraordinary General Meetings!

Just ditch all of this sh t, get your camo gear out, go out at night whilst the landowners are watching pop-factor. All of this access bullshit is just unnecessary empire whankery and it does have the potential to have all sorts of unintended consequences.

Forget the club mentality, leave the office bullshit in the office and go caving and try not to upset anyone.

This CROW nonsense is just typical willy measuring of the worst sort.

STOP IT.

At least one landowner is monitoring this thread and is VERY offended by the suggestion I would be watching Pop-Factor, sober up, then apologise, this is not helping---
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2016, 09:33:25 pm »
Perhaps the pro-landowner cavers are doing their best to smooth over the damage being done to our reputation by those who care more for their "rights" than the people whose land they explore beneath. You never know. After all, who are they more likely to listen to?  And nobody is predicting "disaster" - just wanting idealists to be a bit more pragmatic and take a wider view of the consequences. Banging on about "right to trespass" or whatever, is the attitude of some and it doesn't go down well with many people.

And, the vote might have been "lost", but the debate isn't a matter for a vote, it's simply a matter of who proves to have been correct when the issue is finalised. Nobody will know that until it happens.

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2016, 09:43:54 pm »
Perhaps the pro-landowner cavers are doing their best to smooth over the damage being done to our reputation by those who care more for their "rights" than the people whose land they explore beneath. You never know. After all, who are they more likely to listen to?  And nobody is predicting "disaster" - just wanting idealists to be a bit more pragmatic and take a wider view of the consequences. Banging on about "right to trespass" or whatever, is the attitude of some and it doesn't go down well with many people.

And, the vote might have been "lost", but the debate isn't a matter for a vote, it's simply a matter of who proves to have been correct when the issue is finalised. Nobody will know that until it happens.

This response is why most people I know don't go on UK Caving.

I like the disparaging connotation that I'm an anti-landowner caver, don't care about other people's rights and will be proved wrong once a disaster hasn't occurred. You are just fuelling the flames and just trying to stir up more bad PR - after reading this if I was a landowner I wouldn't let a caver on my land regardless of the result of the clarification

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2016, 09:55:34 pm »
I don't like being called "anti-access", or even "anti-CRoW", but I don't moan about it, and it is of no consequence anyway. It's not ME that considers others to be anti-landowner, its the landowners who don't like what they see going on who pick this up. Which is the point I was making, not having a go at others.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2016, 09:58:39 pm »
There are many I know who don't come here because of the aggressive nature of the Pro-CRoW camp. Some you won't see because they left voluntarily. As for some others ? If you want to see how divisive the issue has become, look no further that this forum and the number of cavers who no longer come here since this all started. But then, it's much easier to blame me I suppose.

Offline bograt

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2016, 10:02:33 pm »
Perhaps the pro-landowner cavers are doing their best to smooth over the damage being done to our reputation by those who care more for their "rights" than the people whose land they explore beneath. You never know. After all, who are they more likely to listen to?  And nobody is predicting "disaster" - just wanting idealists to be a bit more pragmatic and take a wider view of the consequences. Banging on about "right to trespass" or whatever, is the attitude of some and it doesn't go down well with many people.

And, the vote might have been "lost", but the debate isn't a matter for a vote, it's simply a matter of who proves to have been correct when the issue is finalised. Nobody will know that until it happens.

This response is why most people I know don't go on UK Caving.

I like the disparaging connotation that I'm an anti-landowner caver, don't care about other people's rights and will be proved wrong once a disaster hasn't occurred. You are just fuelling the flames and just trying to stir up more bad PR - after reading this if I was a landowner I wouldn't let a caver on my land regardless of the result of the clarification

Personally, I can't find a fault with Peters post, perhaps you are allowing emotions to overtake reason Nearlywhite ??
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Offline danthecavingman

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2016, 10:05:31 pm »
I don't think it's about being pro-landowner or anti-landowner. I think it's more to do with pro or ante permits and access restrictions. Which every other bugger who wants to enjoy the outdoors doesn't need to jump through hoops for. On the high moorland access land we're talking about which is mostly sheep grazing or grouse moorland where anyone can wander as they please, why, oh why would cavers be any more disruptive or cause more damage than walkers etc....

As a caver I have always had the utmost respect for the landowners upon whose land I have caved and with the odd exception where I learnt from mistakes, have always sought permission for digging etc.

Digging and diving need to be separated from 'caving or potholing'. I don't see either of the former being covered by CROW but the latter should be no problem for anyone. And yes I agree there are some systems with entrances on CROW land which for conservation reasons should be excluded, which is entirely possible on a SSSI and I don't suspect that anyone will argue against the odd case where systems are vulnerable.

Mendip and Derbyshire will be mostly unaffected by the CROW implications on future access for cavers. South Wales and particularly the Dales are where the issues are, the Dales have long been overdue a rethink on the access to the vast grouse moors overlying much of the 3 Counties system.

I would rather that CROW rights for caving where seen as an easing of restrictions rather than a case of we're going caving and there's nothing you can do to stop us.... I don't think the majority want to stick two fingers up to the landowners, rather just be allowed to come and go as they please like the rest of Joe Public.

Just my thoughts.

We should stick together on this. I don't understand why anyone who caves wouldn't welcome greater freedom to practice their hobby where and when they want, ON CROW LAND.

Dan.
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Offline Pegasus

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2016, 10:05:56 pm »

This response is why most people I know don't go on UK Caving.


Feel sad having read that - UKC is not just about debate on Crow  :( :(

Offline bograt

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2016, 10:19:48 pm »
Tend to agree with Dan, biggest hurdle is the grouse moors, where the shooting has already been disrupted by permitted walkers, etc., why should the much smaller percentage increase of cavers make any difference?, neither the grouse nor the fee paying shooters are bothered about what happens beneath their feet.

Also agree with Pegasus, those who voluntarily exclude themselves from UKC are unknowingly denying themselves a wealth of knowledge I would have died for back in the '70's --.( youngsters have it easy these days, we were 'ard then ---)
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2016, 10:20:11 pm »
Nearlywhite is completely right and I applaud his position.

Before the vote, a number of people in the “no” camp voiced very loud concerns (I would prefer to allude to them as potential libellous) that were a “yes” to be forthcoming then this would lead to;

Dis-respecting landowners (en masse)
Increased volumes of visitors to caves
Caves being trashed by excessive traffic
Gates being forced off
Loss of conservation concerns
Etc etc.

Suffice it to say, there was a tremendous amount of “doom-mongering” (by a notable few).

Did any of that happen? No.

What did happen?

The same notable few have embarked on a ”smear” campaign, a discredit campaign and, frankly, a campaign to bring caving itself into disrepute. They have not stopped at just “shouting smear” but have been actively creating and publishing  smear media in a very pro-active attempt to de-rail the referendum.

These people condemn the “yes” camp. They condemn the people working hard to achieve better access for ALL cavers, they condemn people who are pursing actions legally within their rights, they condemn the “ordinary caver” and, as Nearlywhite correctly points out, they blacken the name of “good” cavers in the face of landowners to fuel flames and fire.

This small number of people engaged in these active smear campaigns are a total disgrace to the caving community and they suffer us more damage every day with their disgusting behaviour.

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Offline Disgusted from Cornwall.

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2016, 10:23:33 pm »
If you come down to Cornwall, you will find all of your answers. People don't want you in their holes. If you ask them and make a fuss, they will merely look at their entrances more carefully.

Obviously, we are mostly mines down here.

As a part of my £5m insurance cover, I made specifically sure that it covered "going down holes" to survey them for the purpose of subsidence risk assessment (under the guise of work). Even with this card pulled, people do not like the thought of holes, or anything to do with them. If it's a load of people "just poking around" or a seriously organised club with lots of special titles like a company, it doesn't change the mindset.

Stop making a fuss unless you absolutely have to. I VERY MUCH RESENT THIS CLUB MENTALITY AND "EMPIRE BUILDING". "We are all good and responsible, everyone else are a bunch of dangerous nutters, we will manage access for you and here's our BCA insurance".

If any of you waggle your willies in front of a landowner with this nonsense, or any other caving club nonsense, they will most likely tell you to F.O. They are more likely to then see that Jeeves makes sure that the entrance is sealed. This goes for the crown, duchy, private estates or Mrs Goggins with a shaft in her garden.

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2016, 10:27:13 pm »
This has been done to death a thousand times...but you're essentiallt saying...
There are landowners who are happy (or at least accept) Walkers and Climbers having a Legal right to use access land...AND have good caver relations and are currently happy to allow cavers to go in Caves on their Land...that will be unhappy if the existing access they voluntarily grant to cavers is put on the same legal footing as the rights climbers and walkers currently enjoy...

Do that sound realistic?

More realistic...Landowners that don't currently like cavers...don't like the idea of CRoW access to Caves
Landowners with good Caver relations...won't give a flying f*ck about it...

Oh...Landowners that have been told by access bodies and/or clubs that CRoW access for Cavers is the end of the world...might currently be a little bit windy about it...wonder how/why that could have happened!

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2016, 10:30:20 pm »
This small number of people engaged in these active smear campaigns are a total disgrace to the caving community and they suffer us more damage every day with their disgusting behaviour.

Thanks. Nice to see you wanting to keep the caving community united with your friendly comments.

Offline danthecavingman

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2016, 10:41:38 pm »
Peter,

A straightforward question. Would you like to see access rights extended to members of the public in respect of caving / potholing on CROW land in light of caving being an 'outdoor' activity 'in fresh air' in the spirit of the Act as it was probably intended?

For clarity, this does not include Mines. It does not include underground quarries. It does not encompass digging. Nor does it include diving. Just caving / potholing. Pure and simple. Walk up to an open entrance on CROW land and go caving.

Yes or no?

That is all I ask.

Dan.

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Offline bograt

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2016, 10:42:49 pm »
If you come down to Cornwall, you will find all of your answers. People don't want you in their holes. If you ask them and make a fuss, they will merely look at their entrances more carefully.

Obviously, we are mostly mines down here.

As a part of my £5m insurance cover, I made specifically sure that it covered "going down holes" to survey them for the purpose of subsidence risk assessment (under the guise of work). Even with this card pulled, people do not like the thought of holes, or anything to do with them. If it's a load of people "just poking around" or a seriously organised club with lots of special titles like a company, it doesn't change the mindset.

Stop making a fuss unless you absolutely have to. I VERY MUCH RESENT THIS CLUB MENTALITY AND "EMPIRE BUILDING". "We are all good and responsible, everyone else are a bunch of dangerous nutters, we will manage access for you and here's our BCA insurance".

If any of you waggle your willies in front of a landowner with this nonsense, or any other caving club nonsense, they will most likely tell you to F.O. They are more likely to then see that Jeeves makes sure that the entrance is sealed. This goes for the crown, duchy, private estates or Mrs Goggins with a shaft in her garden.

And your point is ? -- CRoW does not cover mines, unless you can find natural caves in your area this is not your thread, there should be a regional BCA body to cover your area, this is who you should contact to address your grievances.
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Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2016, 10:44:40 pm »
Quote
If you come down to Cornwall, you will find all of your answers. People don't want you in their holes

Yes, because obviously Cornwall is completely different to EVERY other mining region in the UK...
I mean, its proved possible to arrange access to and share knowledge about Mine Trips all over the Country...
From Nenthead to the Lake District to Yorkshire, The Peaks, North Wales, The Forest of Dean, Mendip etc etc...
Just about everywhere in the Country is it possible...despite Mines being on Farmland or Moorland, private land and access land...despite there being deep SRT trips, trips with bad Air etc etc all over the land...
In each and every region you can be assured of shared knowledge, resources access and a warme welcome from other Mine Explorers...
But NOPE Cornwall is completely different...and its TOTALLY down to the landowners...not eh Mine-Explorers...honest!

Offline bograt

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2016, 10:57:26 pm »
Quote
If you come down to Cornwall, you will find all of your answers. People don't want you in their holes

Yes, because obviously Cornwall is completely different to EVERY other mining region in the UK...
I mean, its proved possible to arrange access to and share knowledge about Mine Trips all over the Country...
From Nenthead to the Lake District to Yorkshire, The Peaks, North Wales, The Forest of Dean, Mendip etc etc...
Just about everywhere in the Country is it possible...despite Mines being on Farmland or Moorland, private land and access land...despite there being deep SRT trips, trips with bad Air etc etc all over the land...
In each and every region you can be assured of shared knowledge, resources access and a warme welcome from other Mine Explorers...
But NOPE Cornwall is completely different...and its TOTALLY down to the landowners...not eh Mine-Explorers...honest!

 :lol: :lol: Is that sarcasm or irony Jason ??, I have trouble differentiating -- :lol: :lol:
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Offline bograt

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2016, 11:25:55 pm »
Oh Um, off to lambing, bye bye .
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Online droid

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2016, 04:15:12 am »
Ian's (Jackalpup) post is just the sort of overblown vitriolic rhetoric that isn't needed in this debate.

Expressing a need for caution and compromise when dealing with landowners isn't 'smear' it's common sense.

Now this may come as a shock to him, given his *ad hominem* approach to this, but I'm broadly in favour of CRoW. However, I was so unhappy with the 'gung ho' approach of *some* of the pro-CRoW lobby that I was one of the 37% that voted 'no'.

That doesn't mean however, that I wish to derail the campaign. I wish though, that the more fervent pro-CRoWers would try to understand some of the concerns of the CRoW-cautious side of things. These are genuine concerns. Address them in a similarly genuine manner and you may find people come round.

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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2016, 07:08:52 am »

This response is why most people I know don't go on UK Caving.


Feel sad having read that - UKC is not just about debate on Crow  :( :(

That's a good point Pegasus - we do all need to remember to be grateful for the work you do to keep this resource up and running. I've found it invaluable for tracking down hard to find information, among other things. Thank you (and same to Badlad).
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 07:35:02 am by Pitlamp »

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2016, 07:59:49 am »
As far as I am aware, UKCaving is not an online parliamentary committee enquiry where we are obliged to attend and be bullied into answering questions. I see no need to reply to questions personally directed at me in such a manner. Perhaps having UKCaving used in such a manner is deterring some people from using it?