Author Topic: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?  (Read 16126 times)

Offline mrodoc

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2016, 11:00:53 pm »
The CRoW issue isn't new. I used to get upset about when hang gliding over 30 years ago. As somebody else pointed out in the Guardian recently you can lug you hang glider or para glider across CRoW land but you cannot necessarily take off from it. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2016, 11:06:03 pm »
"It's only two padlocks". What a travesty of a completely ill-informed comment. In all the chats I have had over this nonsense, NOBODY has mentioned "two padlocks", but rather a whole range of general issues of great concern, all of which have been gone over here ad nauseam. If you are trying to distort the nature of the issues, you are managed it like a black hole swallows galaxies.

Offline Madness

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2016, 11:27:43 pm »
but rather a whole range of general issues of great concern, all of which have been gone over here ad nauseam.

Would it be possible for someone to summarise these concerns for the benefit of those of us that have entered the debate at this late stage? I don't really want to be reading 2 years worth of posts on the subject.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2016, 11:35:10 pm »
It would add fuel to the fire. I am sick of it. It doesn't matter how much genuine concerns are expressed, those doing it just get vilified and ridiculed. I am not doing that again.

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2016, 11:46:48 pm »

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2016, 11:54:14 pm »
I aint going anywhere. You don't get off that lightly.

Offline robjones

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2016, 12:05:03 am »
The CRoW issue isn't new. I used to get upset about when hang gliding over 30 years ago. As somebody else pointed out in the Guardian recently you can lug you hang glider or para glider across CRoW land but you cannot necessarily take off from it. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

Kite flying is allowed on Access land under CRoW leglislation ... maybe the solution is a Cody man-lifting kite...  ;)

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2016, 12:24:17 am »
Red sky at night ... get off my f**&@%g land.

Offline Madness

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2016, 07:44:37 am »
It would add fuel to the fire. I am sick of it. It doesn't matter how much genuine concerns are expressed, those doing it just get vilified and ridiculed. I am not doing that again.

You can't accuse pro-CRoW people of ignoring your concerns and then refuse to list your concerns when asked by a pro-CRoW person about them!

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2016, 08:03:29 am »
"It's only two padlocks". What a travesty of a completely ill-informed comment. In all the chats I have had over this nonsense, NOBODY has mentioned "two padlocks",

The two padlocks comes from a previous time when the question about how many cave on Mendip might be affected by CRoW was asked on this forum. The answer given was that the only gated caves on Mendip that might be affected were St. Cuthberts and Upper Flood. If you think we have been ill-informed then please correct it.

Two gated caves - hence the two padlocks.

Offline Ed W

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2016, 08:17:14 am »
Hi Simon,

This has come up before http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=17419.msg229543#msg229543, and from that thread I made the following post;

Quote
SK;

Working form memory here, but if I recall correctly from the CSCC EGM on the subject, there are 151 cave entrances that have been identified as lying on Access Land.  Some of these are gated at present, but the CSCC Conservation & Access Officer stated that of these only four concerned him with respect to possible conservation issues.  These were St Cuthbert's Swallet, Upper Flood Swallet, Bone Hole and Grebe Swallet.  These will need Section 26 applications if access controls are to be maintained as and when CROW is officially re-interpreted as applying to caves.

There are several that are gated for public safety reasons, and there has been some debate about which of these would warrant Section 25 applications to maintain access controls for public safety reasons.

Hope this helps,

Ed

UFS & Cuthberts were considered vulnerable because of stal, whilst Grebe and Bone it is Archaeology that is vulnerable.

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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2016, 08:30:07 am »
It would add fuel to the fire. I am sick of it. It doesn't matter how much genuine concerns are expressed, those doing it just get vilified and ridiculed. I am not doing that again.

The concerns have been taken seriously but a genuine concern needs to be demonstrably genuine. People are genuinely concerned about landowner relations and this can be demonstrated by the fact that it is recorded in the minutes of CNCC meetings. Pitlamp has been invited to CNCC meetings to contribute to the discussions and he has declined.

... the damage caused to caver / landowner relations. This is already considerable. 
Can you justify that statement?

Pitlamp replied that he didn't have time to justify it but that might try to in the future. That justification will be welcome and will be given serious consideration. If Pitlamp knows of any landowners who have concerns then we need to know who they are and what their concerns are.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2016, 08:58:50 am »
Hi Simon,

This has come up before http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=17419.msg229543#msg229543, and from that thread I made the following post;

Quote
SK;

Working form memory here, but if I recall correctly from the CSCC EGM on the subject, there are 151 cave entrances that have been identified as lying on Access Land.  Some of these are gated at present, but the CSCC Conservation & Access Officer stated that of these only four concerned him with respect to possible conservation issues.  These were St Cuthbert's Swallet, Upper Flood Swallet, Bone Hole and Grebe Swallet.  These will need Section 26 applications if access controls are to be maintained as and when CROW is officially re-interpreted as applying to caves.

There are several that are gated for public safety reasons, and there has been some debate about which of these would warrant Section 25 applications to maintain access controls for public safety reasons.

Hope this helps,

Ed

UFS & Cuthberts were considered vulnerable because of stal, whilst Grebe and Bone it is Archaeology that is vulnerable.

The question was discussed on this forum late in 2014 and I thought it came down to the two caves but if there are in fact four gated caves that are Access Land on Mendip then I stand corrected.

So it boils down to four padlocks on Mendip (that apparently could be sorted out by doing some paperwork) compared to several hundred square miles of karst in the North of England.

Offline Ed W

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2016, 09:17:25 am »
Simon,

You could put it that way!  But as Pete Hall has said elsewhere not all Southern cavers are aligned with the Anticrow.  There are plenty of us down south who are equally as enthusiastic about the potential benefits of caving becoming embraced by CROW.

Ed
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2016, 05:59:31 pm »
Mendip has huge potential for more discoveries. We are not talking about the present situation here. Conservation minded cavers and owners will be reluctant to open up new sites if they think there is the slightest chance of legislation being used to put them at risk.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2016, 06:33:18 pm »
It would add fuel to the fire. I am sick of it. It doesn't matter how much genuine concerns are expressed, those doing it just get vilified and ridiculed. I am not doing that again.

You can't accuse pro-CRoW people of ignoring your concerns and then refuse to list your concerns when asked by a pro-CRoW person about them!
Watch me. The concerns have been aired in many places. I do not need to repeat them. Anybody really wanting to find out what concerned people think will find it.

Offline badger

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2016, 06:48:13 pm »
Mendip has huge potential for more discoveries. We are not talking about the present situation here. Conservation minded cavers and owners will be reluctant to open up new sites if they think there is the slightest chance of legislation being used to put them at risk.
not sure the conservation is an issue as if this is an issue then section 26 will allow a gate and access controlled like we see at the newly extended festers hole. and if conservation is our primary goal then no caver would ever enter a cave cause as soon as we do we change its whole being. HLIS being on private land and being gated did not stop it being vandalised. and the mere fact we are digging is this not a conservation issue?
and not sure why crow would be an issue as diggers with or without crow still have to gain permission from the relevant people/ne already. those that don't are and will be breaking the law.
landowners who already have an issue with cavers will still have an issue with cavers,
those cavers who already flout excisting access arrangements will still flout them crow or no crow


Offline Brains

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2016, 06:56:36 pm »
Mendip has huge potential for more discoveries. We are not talking about the present situation here. Conservation minded cavers and owners will be reluctant to open up new sites if they think there is the slightest chance of legislation being used to put them at risk.
not sure the conservation is an issue as if this is an issue then section 26 will allow a gate and access controlled like we see at the newly extended festers hole. and if conservation is our primary goal then no caver would ever enter a cave cause as soon as we do we change its whole being. HLIS being on private land and being gated did not stop it being vandalised. and the mere fact we are digging is this not a conservation issue?
and not sure why crow would be an issue as diggers with or without crow still have to gain permission from the relevant people/ne already. those that don't are and will be breaking the law.
landowners who already have an issue with cavers will still have an issue with cavers,
those cavers who already flout excisting access arrangements will still flout them crow or no crow
Agreed

Offline droid

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2016, 07:00:25 pm »
So CRoW will make no difference to landowners or access? is that what you are saying?

In which case BCA is throwing money (and Tim Allen's efforts) in the bin.
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Offline Brains

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2016, 07:03:28 pm »
It will make a difference to sites on access land. It will not be the end for digging or exploration  - these can continue as they do now, and finds that require protection can be given it if so desired.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2016, 11:25:11 pm »
Section 26 is nothing like the cure all you all seem to think it is. Reality check is required here, I think.

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2016, 12:14:26 am »
Section 26 is nothing like the cure all you all seem to think it is. Reality check is required here, I think.

It's obviously a rubbish, not thought through law then in that case. Erm...

Offline droid

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2016, 04:57:52 am »
Section 26 is nothing like the cure all you all seem to think it is. Reality check is required here, I think.

It's obviously a rubbish, not thought through law then in that case. Erm...

That would be a novelty, wouldn't it?
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2016, 06:36:26 am »
Section 26 is nothing like the cure all you all seem to think it is. Reality check is required here, I think.

I've never seen anyone explain why.
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Re: A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2016, 11:06:07 am »
Apparently it takes 6 months or more to get a Section 26 order in place and in these times of austerity there are no resources to process the applications.
If previously controlled caves were suddenly opened up to free access there is the possibility of a lot of damage before a section 26 order could be put in place.

I do sometimes wonder if DEFRA's stance on CRoW is influenced by a desire to avoid a lot of work.
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