Author Topic: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?  (Read 15260 times)

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2018, 07:57:40 pm »
I've found Linda (and Graham) to be most helpful in some the research I've been undertaking recently.  (And before the trolls come out, yes it is related to 'faint scratches' in caves....)
Volunteers are rather hard to come by these days, so Linda gets my vote.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2018, 07:59:04 pm »
Is this thread an example of a failed keyboard lynch mob? Some of the contributors appear to be sailing ever-so-close towards libel.

Offline droid

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2018, 08:34:24 pm »
Given the (implied) subject matter, I was thinking it's a pretty tame thread  :lol: :lol:

Rather disappointed The Great Leader hasn't chipped in yet, though....
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Greg Jones

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2018, 08:51:18 pm »
Is this thread an example of a failed keyboard lynch mob? Some of the contributors appear to be sailing ever-so-close towards libel.

Oh gawd! We don't want any more instances of cavers setting the law onto other cavers. That's already being covered isn't it?
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Offline nickwilliams

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2018, 09:03:10 pm »
Persons interested in this topic may find it useful to refer to the minutes of the October meeting of the BCA Council, specifically my report and the subsequent discussion.

http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=about:documents:council_meetings:start&s[]=council&s[]=minutes

The matter will be discussed again at the meeting this coming weekend.

Nick Williams
Ac. Hon Sec, BCA
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Offline zomjon

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2018, 09:43:56 pm »
Cap'n Chris, on the whole quite the opposite of a lynch mob I would have thought, other than the contributions of maybe two, all of the rest have been relatively supportive!

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2018, 09:45:30 pm »
I was referring to the OT/title, not the way it has (thankfully) panned out, but thanks anyhoo.

Offline 2xw

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2018, 11:36:42 pm »
I agree with the deletion and split. In my opinion, the BCA should seek professional advice when it needs it, preferably from currently employed professionals, and these should not be an officer role but more advisory. This would preferably be from someone far from the caving world as possible to ensure any advice is unbiased and accurate.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 11:55:48 pm by 2xw »

Offline BradW

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2018, 07:57:16 am »
Some observations to consider:

1. If you don't want an individual to volunteer, but are not in a position to do it yourself or propose a willing alternative, perhaps it's best to stay silent.

2. If the purpose of this discussion was to raise alarms and suspicions, one could say, in view of the number of supportive messages for Linda, that it has backfired spectacularly.

3. Do we REALLY want to turn BCA into an echo chamber where those on council only ever hear comforting words that please them?

4. A high-functioning governing body will always include a diverse set of views and ideas, but also a meaningful respect of those with differing views.  Individual integrity and mutual trust between members is another vital ingredient.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2018, 09:32:47 am »
Brad, consider this.

I don't need to raise suspicions and alarm, as many, many people are already suspicious and alarmed. I was, as far as I can tell, one of the last to hear about this, I just happen to be the one that doesn't care about being "blacklisted" from Mendip, or other such nonsense, hence me making this thread, and not other, more recognised people. The fact that a significant number of people have legitimate concerns about being blacklisted, or there being other "problems" with access to many Mendip caves if they raise any concerns about this. Does that not tell you something?

We certainly don't want to turn the BCA into an Echo chamber, but as one person put it to me, that appointing Linda into that position would be akin to putting me in charge of a scheme to remove access for everyone. It's not realistic, given our histories. We're too entrenched in our respective positions.

I don't have a volunteer to suggest, because I think the BCA should outsource from someone that has no vested interest either way. Many people also think that. You are correct in that individual integrity is essential - With regards to Caving, I am *firmly* of the opinion that Linda Wilson does not have it, and this would be very bad for the BCA.
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Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2018, 09:50:44 am »
As a matter of interest is Linda a member of this forum ? I rather think her partner Graham has been banned but for what reason I do not know. The consequence of this is that they have started their own forum now.

Offline BradW

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2018, 09:57:44 am »
Newstuff - lots of folks here don't share your views, and I think would be disappointed, if not alarmed, if much heed were taken of them.

Offline BradW

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2018, 10:16:49 am »
Brad, consider this.

I don't need to raise suspicions and alarm, as many, many people are already suspicious and alarmed. I was, as far as I can tell, one of the last to hear about this, I just happen to be the one that doesn't care about being "blacklisted" from Mendip, or other such nonsense, hence me making this thread, and not other, more recognised people. The fact that a significant number of people have legitimate concerns about being blacklisted, or there being other "problems" with access to many Mendip caves if they raise any concerns about this. Does that not tell you something?

Yes it tells me that you don't really know how Mendip cavers think. The idea of a blacklist is risible. And how can they blacklist someone they can't identify - you won't be "signing in" with the name "NewStuff" I imagine.

Offline Aubrey

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2018, 10:22:10 am »
There is no such thing as a Mendip blacklist and I am annoyed that Newdtuff should suggest otherwise.
Does he have any evidence to say we are not friendly and welcoming to all cavers?
make more cave - we have the technology!

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2018, 11:59:24 am »
As a matter of interest is Linda a member of this forum ? I rather think her partner Graham has been banned but for what reason I do not know. The consequence of this is that they have started their own forum now.

I didn't know that - please can you give us a link?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2018, 12:07:38 pm »
There is no such thing as a Mendip blacklist and I am annoyed that Newdtuff should suggest otherwise.
Does he have any evidence to say we are not friendly and welcoming to all cavers?

I reckon to be a Dales and Peak District caver in the main. But when I was in my mid teens my parents deposited me on Mendip for a few days, with all my worldly possessions in a rucsack. I knew absolutely no-one but the local cavers gave this scruffy kid a warm welcome and really looked after me. Partly because of this I joined the Wessex and was a member for many years. I only lapsed because circumstances stopped me getting there as often as I'd have liked.

In my experience of Mendip cavers, they certainly are an extremely friendly bunch.

I've never come across the idea of any "black list".   :shrug:

Offline NigR

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2018, 12:29:28 pm »
As a matter of interest is Linda a member of this forum ? I rather think her partner Graham has been banned but for what reason I do not know. The consequence of this is that they have started their own forum now.

Yes, she is a member of this forum. However, looking at some of her posts, it would appear that she has been somewhat reluctant in the past to make her true identity known. Perhaps now might be a good time to have a rethink on this?

Offline Martin Laverty

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2018, 03:36:42 pm »
Q: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
A: No - she volunteered to be a Gatekeeper - not advisor or officer - and welcomed the suggestion of an advisory panel; Andy Eavis said he knew of three other legally qualified people willing to help. (Thanks to Nick Williams for giving a link to the otherwise not easy to find draft minutes - http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=about:documents:council_meetings:council_minutes_2017-10-07.pdf  It would be a good idea if more people read them before continuing with this topic).

The idea of splitting up the Legal & Insurance role vacated by Bob Mehew's (unfortunate) resignation is still up for discussion, and, I suppose, ratification and/or election at the AGM. As 2xw suggested, the idea of any formal advice being sought from a professional unconnected with caving if thought necessary sounds good to me, but an informal panel of legally qualified caving insiders is also desirable to advise the BCA officials of what they need to consider...
 
[Incidental moan at out of date websites: the BCA website still lists Bob as responsible for:
1 To ensure that the best possible Insurance Policies are obtained, maintained and updated;
2 Keeping a watch on new/proposed legislation in the outdoor, recreational and access to countryside areas, and taking appropriate actions;
3 Keeping our equity, and other policies and guidance documents under constant review and recommending updating as appropriate

In practice, he didn't look after the insurance side, but he was also Child Protection Officer...and I think he should have been responsible for equality rather than equity...
], and the appearance of this topic should certainly warn BCA that Linda's personal views are not always uncontroversial - just as Graham's aren't - but that doesn't mean that everything they say is controversial (I, for one, miss many of Graham's informative, and often thoughtful, contributions to this forum, while not missing the repetitive, spiteful ones...)

A puzzler for Pitlamp:
Q: Have Linda, Graham (and 'Bottlebank') set up a new forum?
A: No - but they have set up a new soapbox website named something like Underground Blackness

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2018, 07:25:30 pm »
Thanks for your prompt Martin. A quick google on the search term "Underground Blackness" took me into all sorts of weird territory . . .

Did you really mean this?  http://darknessbelow.co.uk/

I didn't know Graham and Linda were involved. I certainly find it a useful resource.

Offline royfellows

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2018, 07:57:31 pm »
Thanks for your prompt Martin. A quick google on the search term "Underground Blackness" took me into all sorts of weird territory . . .


Lowest prices for Underground Blackness on Amazon?
 :lol:
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline Martin Laverty

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2018, 08:34:11 pm »
You got it Pitlamp!

Trying 'Adventures Underground' is'nt that much more weird in than my clue in (image) searchland though...

Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2018, 01:25:11 pm »
I am writing this post as respectfully as I can whilst still informing cavers on a matter that is of interest to many.

Firstly I volunteer myself for several caving organisations and I know how hard it is to find volunteers to fill roles and how difficult it is to turn someone down when they do make an offer.

For my own part in this matter I would like to make it clear that I am not questioning anyone’s integrity but only their suitability to undertake a particular role.

There are many diverse views across caving and that is reflected at BCA council.  I would not expect that to ever change, but we are not talking here about just holding different views we are talking about actively campaigning against a BCA position (a position which has clearly been ratified by the membership).  An example of this is where the BCA chairman and officers have lobbied particular government officials only to then discover that another individual has then come along to lobby against them.  Of course this is their right but it does then create a conflict of interest if they volunteer for an influential role at the heart of the BCA.

A number of caving organisations and individuals have picked up on this conflict of interest and written accordingly to BCA exec and council.  I personally thank them for bringing it to council’s attention.

At the heart of this matter was some confusion over the BCA ‘Legal and Insurance Officer’ role following the resignation of Bob Mehew.   This is now clearer after the following proposal was agreed at Saturday’s council meeting.  (wording taken from my notes only)

That the post of Legal and Insurance Officer be deleted from Council agendas;
That insurance related matters be the remit of an officer co-opted by council;
As required, the executive to seek the opinion of one or more currently practising legal professionals on legal matters as they arise; such persons shall not be officers of the association and shall not be required to attend council meetings. 


This essentially means that the role of legal officer passes to the executive.  The words ‘currently practicing’ is intended to ensure there is some insured indemnity on any advice given.  It should be noted that the subject of this thread is retired and non-practising.  The exec have indicated that an offer to act as a ‘gatekeeper’ for legal enquiries will be declined.  However, it was not clear whether this applies to other vacant roles.


Offline BradW

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2018, 02:37:14 pm »
So: the post under consideration was never a position on council in the first place? So what on earth was all the fuss about? And how did some people get the impression that Linda was being considered as a Mehew equivalent?

Offline Greg Jones

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2018, 08:41:32 pm »
Thank-you for the report Badlad.
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Offline And

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Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2018, 10:30:37 pm »
How did you get your position on the BCA, Badlad?