Author Topic: New Petzl Stop  (Read 7581 times)

Online MarkS

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New Petzl Stop
« on: January 19, 2019, 06:01:37 pm »
Not released yet I assume since I can't see anything on the Petzl site (although I've not looked thoroughly) but I saw these photos on Facebook, apparently from a Chinese trade fair.

I don't use a Stop, but I thought people might be interested!



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New Petzl Stop
« on: January 19, 2019, 06:01:37 pm »
Warmbac

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2019, 06:17:42 pm »
Wow, that looks like quite a significant change - are they going down the Rig-style pull handle route? It looks like it's added to the bulk a bit.

Offline Pete K

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2019, 06:48:38 pm »
You just beat me to posting this. Looking forward to seeing the user instructions and getting my hands on one to play with.

http://www.peakinstruction.com/blog/new-petzl-stop/ if interested. Not that I have anything more to go on than the photos in the OP.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2019, 06:50:20 pm »
Instant non-fan.

Online MarkS

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2019, 07:44:26 pm »
Instant non-fan.

Any particular reason?

Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2019, 08:07:43 pm »
So it looks as though as well as making it easier to operate they have done away with the "clutch & plummet" - or as it would be on this version the "pull & plummet" - by profiling that black cam so if the handle is pulled down too far the pointy bit of the cam reverses the gradual anticlockwise (seen by the caver) rotation of the bottom bobbin and the rope is grabbed.
Or am I imagining that?

Online MarkS

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2019, 08:24:30 pm »
So it looks as though as well as making it easier to operate they have done away with the "clutch & plummet" - or as it would be on this version the "pull & plummet" - by profiling that black cam so if the handle is pulled down too far the pointy bit of the cam reverses the gradual anticlockwise (seen by the caver) rotation of the bottom bobbin and the rope is grabbed.
Or am I imagining that?

From Mark W's prototype version, I don't think that was the case. I'm sure he can confirm though.

The new Simple looks similar to the current one (unsurprisingly), but potentially with identical top & bottom bobbins?



Oh, and a couple more Stop photos:



No doubt all these new versions will come with significantly upgraded price tags too.

Offline PaulW

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2019, 08:28:57 pm »

From Mark W's prototype version, I don't think that was the case. I'm sure he can confirm though.

New Simple looks similar to the current one (unsurprisingly), but potentially with identical top & bottom bobbins?



Oh, and a couple more Stop photos:

[img widht=250]https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50096366_2011642625588732_7579214953437986816_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=c802c11015317963dbb3caf4e22a8082&oe=5CCE4FAF[/img]

And as Pete says in his blog link write up a new modified Frenio

Offline MJenkinson

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2019, 09:41:54 pm »
I’ve just read elsewhere that you can’t disenagage the lock on the new stop (as you can with a crab on old one) and you can’t replace bobbins?

This was off FB though so could be a load of twoddle

Offline Pete K

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2019, 09:56:24 pm »
It certainly does not appear that you can disable the brake assist, which is not a big issue for me.
There are no hex heads on the bobbin pins, so it looks like it can't have them replaced. It does however look to me that both bobbins are stainless steel, which will increase the life anyway. One of the firms I work with could wear out an alloy Stop bobbin in 2 weeks. Since we switched to Kong Indy Evo with stainless, they last 6 months.
I can't wait to try this new Stop out against my new version RIG. I'm not sure cavers will love the new Stop, but for instructors, it does tick some boxes the old one does not.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 10:05:58 pm by Pete K »

Offline Pete K

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2019, 10:00:12 pm »
That little hole on the handle intrigues me. It seems too deliberate to be a pre-production type mould mark or blemish. It must have a purpose. Maybe for tying a cord through to use it in a very confined space. I suppose it could even be adapted into some kind of toggle where a left-hand amputee could use a simple pull motion with a prosthetic to use the handle.
I'm probably over thinking it.

Offline thomasr

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2019, 10:00:46 pm »
I think we must remind ourselves that these gadgets tools or whatevever are designed in the first intance to suit the needs of industry who arent really into changing bobbins. As noted before the needs of cavers are more secondary.

Offline Stuart France

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2019, 10:26:07 pm »
I don't use a Stop either but the new one looks very pretty.

I thought I'd share my homebrew descender with you all.  I've use it for a couple of years.  Smooth to use and accurate to stay stopped level with a bolt.  It weight 350g, about the same as the old Petzl Stop.   Since I took these photos, I've shortened the titanium side bars a bit and removed the excess thread.  All parts are replaceable and the sliding bars are the standard Petzl ones.  The "angle iron" top and bottom plates are aerospace aluminium.



Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2019, 06:58:09 am »
Instant non-fan.

Any particular reason?

Yes: the handle and the studs - I've not used one but from the photos (for which, thanks!) the following leap out:

Heavy indents will collect clay, as will the little hole and the gap between the plates/cams
The handle is long and narrow and looks like a snag/poke potential
Locking off (single handed one-move is possible with present Stop); I'm intrigued how the various lock-off configurations with the present Stop are replicated with this new one
Extremely confined descents are routinely managed by extending present Stop on a short safety connector but the handle is still easily within reach - the new one looks like the handle will be a greater stretch to get hold of
If used in an exceptionally muddy environment the new Stop handle and body will become a long clump of mud and getting the handle open looks like it would be fiddly
Is there a handle function override? (i.e. the present Stop can be converted to function as a Simple)
It looks significantly bigger (given the handle) than the old one, and presumably heavier?
Locking off when using class L ropes and twin braking carabiners it looks as though the handle on the new one has a likelihood of becoming linked into the higher braking carabiner.
The studs holding the bobbins don't look in-field user serviceable like the present Stop (spannerable) and the bobbins appear solid (are they?) - if they are not solid how can you visually ascertain wear depth with regard to proximity of need to replace?
The leverage of the handle, combined with finger-sized gaps between it and the body: it looks like pinch injuries could predictably occur.

It would be interesting to try one to see whether any of these are issues or whether they've all been considered and countered by the (usually ingenius) Petzl design team: I'm a great fan of Petzl (not *everything* they do, though - e.g. Freino, triact gates etc. etc.) so please don't think I'm being anti - it might be the best thing since sliced bread.

I'll be v interested to hear Mike Hopley's thoughts.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 07:09:40 am by Cap'n Chris »

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2019, 07:04:44 am »
So it looks as though as well as making it easier to operate they have done away with the "clutch & plummet"

Petzl overcome user error by insisting on competent* training before use.

* Not someone saying "To go down you press that handle".

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2019, 08:54:24 am »
I think we must remind ourselves that these gadgets tools or whatevever are designed in the first intance to suit the needs of industry who arent really into changing bobbins. As noted before the needs of cavers are more secondary.

That probably used to be true for the Stop, but I don't think it's probably true any more. I suspect this new Stop was designed primarily for caving. The I'D and the Rig are the industrial descenders - and even then the Rig is only for 'expert' users as it lacks the extra safety features of the I'D. What I would really be interested to see is the rope range it is rated for - I'm assuming that it will, unlike the industrial descenders, moved to smaller rope diameters in the same way caving has moved to smaller rope diameters. Look at how the GriGri moved to smaller rope diameters when it went from v1 to v2.

Edit: and zooming in, I can see it's now rated 8.5 to 11mm; so they haven't reduced the top end (possibly to cater to horrible fixed ropes) but it will probably be better on 8mm than current Stops (it is French, after all...).

Offline Mike Hopley

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2019, 05:20:12 pm »
I'll be v interested to hear Mike Hopley's thoughts.

Well, my instant reaction is:

  • That looks interesting, I'd like to play with it.
  • I doubt I'll buy one though, as I like my Simple.

Other than that, I'm pretty much echoing Pete's thoughts from his blog. I'd like to see how it functions both as a descender and a lifelining / belay device.

The design looks influenced by their rope access devices. I'm guessing it's a "double brake" descender, to eliminate clutch-and-plummet. Of course, "training / proper use" is a good answer to that, but improving equipment is also valid. The only concern would be how the extra safety feature affects ease of use. I haven't had a chance to try many double-brake descenders, but the ones I have seemed clunky.

The longer handle and pulling action could be more comfortable, especially for thicker/stiffer ropes (this is one thing I always hated about the Stop). I wonder whether Petzl intends the handle to be used for controlling descent speed? From the front plate picture, I guess not.

As Chris mentioned, what about really tight pitch heads? I'd hope there was still some way to disable the handle for these (but I really can't see one), or it could be troublesome. I wouldn't be too worried about mud in the indents though, as it doesn't seem that would interfere with the device. And I reckon the handle could be less snaggy in practice than the current one, as it's up and away from most snaggable things. Only experience will tell.

Being a Freino user, i'm also interested in that design change. They may have eliminated a common annoyance: cowstails clipping themselves through the spur at offset rebelays. But will it still be as slick to lock/unlock?

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2019, 10:25:22 pm »
It's not got an anti-panic handle - the Stop is a basic device for caving with none of the bells and whistles of their larger/heavier industrial descenders. Cavers would only complain about it...

Realistically you use the handle to control descent speed on every single Petzl descender _except_ the Stop, and that's only because the handle is crap, so I assume you use the handle to control descent speed on the new Stop like you do on an I'D, or a Rig, or a GriGri...

Online MarkS

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2019, 08:01:36 pm »
A review starts at 0:44



Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2019, 09:00:51 pm »
Thank you MarkS for this link - very helpful and interesting to see.

As it's no longer user-serviceable it must presumably now be considered a disposable item with an unknown life span.

I'm guessing it won't be cheaper than a standard Stop so at approximately £100 it's going to have to be amazing to justify ownership. IIRC the standard Stops routinely wore through bobbins during the course of many an expedition (I recall seeing photos of masses of worn out bobbins from a single China expedition some years back, for instance). OK so the new one has stainless steel bobbins but taking additional £100 Stops with you in case yours wear out while overseas doesn't seem realistic, so the wear characteristics and resulting performance will be highly interesting - so much so that it's possibly worth buying one and testing it to destruction to see how long one actually lasts on gritty rope and what happens if you continue to use it once it's worn.

I have misgivings about the pull-down handle as I can visualise situations where that could fail-dangerous and not by user error, as is presently the case (sadly).

PS. The presenter has an unusual SRT configuration but that's irrelevant here but I imagine it was to help with camera angle/viewpoint.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 10:54:18 pm by Cap'n Chris »

Offline caving_fox

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2019, 09:13:42 am »
Take home point - no replacing the bobbins when they wear out. (But as they're stainless may wear less badly).

Otherwise from a practical point of view in most cases doesn't seem too different. Less pull on the handle will help for longer descents, and perhaps the smaller profile will aid on narrow stuff.
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Offline GT

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2019, 09:26:07 am »
The change in EN standard is significant. Now EN 15151-1 (braking device with manual assisted locking); think GrIGri or other belay devices, so designed with belaying as well as descending in mind?

EN341, which the old (20 yrs without change!!) STOP conformed relates to a descending device for rescue.

It'll be interesting to look at the associated manufactures instructions and on-line resources from Petzl when it comes out.

Offline Badlad

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2019, 09:37:19 am »
I've tried out the prototype down Rowter Hole.  I also got the sense that it was more positive on the rope when stopping or going.  I'll stick with the old Stop for now as I am used to it but I can see me considering this device in the future.

Not everyone liked the Stop and not everyone will like this device but I expect we'll see lot's of cavers with one over the next decade and it will become the norm.  Everything moves forward and I think this is a forward step.

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2019, 12:43:27 pm »
I like the look of it but may not like the price!

Old Stop I hard lock on the handle so would have to learn new tricks or have my day spoilt.
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Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2019, 04:09:40 pm »
Old Stop I hard lock on the handle so would have to learn new tricks or have my day spoilt.

I too like using the handle to do that semi-hard lock, but it's not in the Petzl guidance. They do recommend using the handle when soft-locking though (which I do only when I'm not using a friction crab or the spur on the Freino) so I'll be interested to see how that changes. In the review video (from about 04:00 till 04:40) he does two locks, one soft style lock using the spur on the Freino, which I've not seen done before, and also the usual hard lock.

Looks like an interesting improvement, I look forward to being able to afford trying it out!

Offline Mike Hopley

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2019, 04:50:38 pm »
...one soft style lock using the spur on the Freino, which I've not seen done before

That's actually Petzl's recommended full lock-off, from their instructions [PDF].

It creeps occasionally on very thin or slippery ropes, but otherwise is very convenient.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2019, 05:37:57 pm »

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2019, 08:23:47 am »
titter..., semi-hard  :lol:

I shall henceforth refer to it as a flaccid-lock :lol:

Offline nihil_enochian

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2020, 09:48:40 pm »
This is an old post, but does anyone else tried this new stop and what are your opinions about it? Does anyone used it for self rescue or cave rescue? My club is planing to buy a few of them  but we can't find enough informations of it.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2020, 11:35:28 pm »
We have several at work. All the instructors dislike them
 We have reverted to using the original ones instead
 I believe Petzl have made an error of judgement with this product.

Offline David Rose

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2020, 09:58:02 am »
Tell us more, Chris. Why don't they like them? They're using them more than most of us would, so this is valuable info!

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2020, 10:48:24 am »
Think it may be mainly what they are used to - I hate abseiling with a GriGri, where the handle is in a very similar position, so you can't wrap your fingers around the device.

Offline GT

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2020, 12:10:13 pm »
Personally I've mixed views on it, but only used for relatively short pitches to date so limited experience. I find the handle easier to use and control, seems as smooth to use as the old stop. Cant make an assessment on wear. I'm using it with the new frieino grab with mixed views in that it snags on things occasionally and pulls the rope over the side plate of the stop so is bound to make it wear quickly; but that was the case with the older version. One of the issues I have with it is in use I find I instinctively end up with my elbow out to use the handle which is a right pain in a snug pitch, just something that needs re-training...

I think the main issue for me is the change in EN standard, in that its EN15151-Type 5. That standard is for a belay device, but critically the "Type 5" classification relates to it being a belay device for single person abseil only (i.e. not belaying a climber). The older version with EN341 which was a rescue descender so could abseil with a 2 person load. It wasn't rated for belaying although was used (probably still is) by many. There was a bit of a mix up by Petzl when they translated the instructions of the old Stop from French to English and used the term "belaying" in their instructions but the device was never tested or designed to be used for belaying. The same is true for the new stop (despite what was written in a recent review in Descent). So for work I'll not be using the new stop, it's just not versatile enough. Petzl have confirmed this. Incidentally they also confirmed you can use the new stop to rig a Tyrolean.

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2020, 12:34:00 pm »
I suspect the alternative standards didn't exist when the Stop was originally designed. Of course, it is cheaper to only apply for the "lower" standard, due to limited market & other devices being available now.

Offline samh

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2020, 01:02:33 pm »
I got one just after Christmas.
I'm best described as a soft southern lightweight (yet fat) caver, so my gear never gets a thorough trashing, but with that caveat, here goes.

The handle action is great, and more intuitive. You don't get hand cramp on longer pitches. Easier to use in cramped conditions. The entrance to Link Pot springs to mind here.
Locking off with my (old style) Freino is a doddle.

It goes down when you want it to, and doesn't when you don't.

I haven't put it through any serious mud yet, so can't comment on how it handles that.

I like it.

Offline Badlad

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2020, 02:00:57 pm »
I suspect the alternative standards didn't exist when the Stop was originally designed. Of course, it is cheaper to only apply for the "lower" standard, due to limited market & other devices being available now.

I remember when the original Stop had 'maximum load 750kg' on it.  The design never changed much but the way loading was determined did and reduced it to 150kg.

PS: I like the new stop.  The downside I expect is the price and the fact that it will wear more quickly and you won't be able to replace parts.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2020, 03:00:24 pm »
If you are just going to complain about the handle being awkward to use etc. just buy a Simple.
If you want to use it for belaying _to a standard_ (but much much easier than a Stop) and self-rescue and other things etc. (and actually want it to reliably lock up although I expect the new Stop is better than the old one for this) then buy a Rig (or similar).
If you want a Stop, buy a Stop. Just remember what a stop is - it is a single person caving (semi-)locking descender which is relatively low profile and fairly bombproof. It is not a belay device. It is not a (good) self-rescue device. It is not a (good) hauling device, or for belaying for an anchor, or a (even vaguely usable) backup ascender... It _is_ a spanner for your central maillon, and can use it to bash things with because it is (and only is) a caving descender.
Simples (pun not intended).

There are lots of other things you _can_ do with a Stop, but better devices exist for those purposes.

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2020, 04:32:33 pm »
But a GriGri without a handle would be as much use as a chocolate fireguard...

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2020, 05:36:32 pm »
If you want to use it for belaying _to a standard_ (but much much easier than a Stop) and self-rescue and other things etc. (and actually want it to reliably lock up although I expect the new Stop is better than the old one for this) then buy a Rig (or similar).

The problem with the Rig (for me at least) is the minimum rated rope diameter of 10mm, compared to the Stop's 8.5mm. I feel like there's an (unexploitably small) gap in the market for a rope-access/self-positioning style descender with a broader diameter range. The Gri-Gri doesn't really fit the bill because you can't lock it off...

Offline Brains

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2020, 06:53:21 pm »
I find the classic Stop a highly versatile piece of kit if you can be bothered to learn how to use it effectively.
I see no reason as yet to re-invent the wheel and pay through the nose for it.

People seem to have got into the mentality that auto locking devices are "good" and non-locking are "bad" - which of course is oversimplified at the least! To be left suspended in your harness for >10 mins can be fatal, but to hit the floor can be painful (and also fatal). Do your buddies know how to get your unconscious body off a pitch in under 10 mins, with whatever fancy device you have been using? At what point is it "better" to cut the rope and let a causality hit the floor than die from suspension trauma? Just a few what ifs to add to the mix...

Offline Mike Hopley

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2020, 10:20:32 pm »
At what point is it "better" to cut the rope and let a causality hit the floor than die from suspension trauma?

The answer to that is probably "never".

Suspension trauma can kill very rapidly, but you really have no way of knowing when it will kick in. It's still not especially well understood, not least because experiments on volunteers were deemed too dangerous to continue.

Consider the case of Toni Kurz, who lasted a whole night on the Eiger hanging in his harness, and continued to fight for life for several hours the next day.

Whereas we know for certain that letting someone fall to the ground -- even just a few metres -- is going to seriously injure or kill them.

Online Fjell

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2020, 11:26:33 pm »
Has anyone ever been rescued unconscious mid-rope from a Stop in a cave? I have always thought the “saving your life” thing to be the least useful bit a Stop could do. A Simple with a Handy is certainly nicer to use. Be interesting to see what would happen if you let go, might not fall that fast. Volunteers needed.
I have used a Stop on a 160m free hang, and the main problem is how toasty it gets if the rope is dry, rather than being able to hold in the handle. I would have been more disturbed if the rope was running over the side plates and sawing away at the krab it was attached to. Particularly when you can see the floor in amazing detail on the way down.
A piece of kit I am more sold on to carry is the Traxion and simple pulley with the ball bearings. And a tube if you think you might need to belay.

Online mikem

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2020, 11:48:55 pm »
The Gri-Gri doesn't really fit the bill because you can't lock it off...
Of course you can: https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Tying-off-the-GRIGRI-to-have-your-hands-free

Consider the case of Toni Kurz, who lasted a whole night on the Eiger hanging in his harness, and continued to fight for life for several hours the next day.
Although Kurz wasn't using a harness, as climbers weren't "hanging around" on routes until the 1960s. I suspect his long survival may have more to do with the response of our bodies to cold - c.f. Beck Weathers' recovery on Everest, or drowning victims being revived after extended periods in arctic waters.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 12:16:35 am by mikem »

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2020, 01:42:27 am »
The problem with the Rig (for me at least) is the minimum rated rope diameter of 10mm, compared to the Stop's 8.5mm.

New Rig is rated for 9mm rope (on one of the standards). My old Rig locked up happily on (some) 8mm rope.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2020, 01:44:17 am »
Has anyone ever been rescued unconscious mid-rope from a Stop in a cave?

A cynic might suggest that on modern ropes a 'safety feature' of the Stop is that your unconscious abseiling casualty will be automatically lowered to the bottom of the pitch (hopefully not too quickly) as the Stop creeps down the rope...

Also the Stop was rated under some standard to 100m descent at 1m/s, and the Rig to 200m presumably due to better heat absorption.

Offline GT

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2020, 10:39:45 am »


Worth a watch

GriGris are not appropriate underground. They wear out too quickly (modern lighter weight devices)

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2020, 11:32:57 am »

Offline Tseralo

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2020, 07:36:54 pm »
Of course you can: https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Tying-off-the-GRIGRI-to-have-your-hands-free

Interesting, I didn't know that, thanks!

You can also do something akin to a hard lock as you would a stop/simple like device obviously not manufacturer-recommended, but works and doesn't need a krab.

 

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