Author Topic: deepest Non SRT cave?  (Read 1992 times)

Offline benshannon

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deepest Non SRT cave?
« on: March 15, 2019, 10:07:57 am »
im just pondering some things and I was wondering, what is the deepest none SRT cave in the dales? or something that would require a couple of ladders at most?

Offline Benfool

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2019, 10:36:16 am »
Roaring Hole?

B

Offline Trogger

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2019, 10:44:46 am »
Maybe an abseiling trip such as Swinsto/Simpson's? - but you'd need to be certain of pulling your ropes down OK, and pre-rig the Valley Entrance with a ladder. Or if you want a longer trip maybe Wretched Rabbit to the Lancaster sump and back? You'd need to be well up on the route finding though.

Offline langcliffe

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2019, 10:46:43 am »
im just pondering some things and I was wondering, what is the deepest none SRT cave in the dales? or something that would require a couple of ladders at most?

I can't compete with Roaring Hole, but Boundary to Lancaster Hole sump is a 107 metre deep tackle-free trip, beating Notts II by a metre.

Offline David Rose

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2019, 11:05:25 am »
I wonder what the deepest non-SRT trip in the world is. I suppose the deepest in Britain is OFD one to three and back.

Offline nobrotson

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2019, 11:11:00 am »
Tathams Wife is another excellent ladder trip which is pretty deep - only 4 pitches and all quite short. We used to do it using ladders with freshers sometimes. Don't know how deep Knacker Trapper is but if you're a good climber you'd only need a couple ladders max. Although we use SRT in there, Hammer Pot would be an excellent ladders trip: biggest pitch is 17m. Penyghent Pot, one of the deepest caves in the Dales, could very easily be done using a minimum of 5 ladders (the first 4 pitches and Myers Leap - the rest can all be climbed) and was regularly done on ladders into the late 1980s by ULSA members exploring the extensions. In fact, DB likes to tell stories about free-climbing up the big pitch in Penyghent in the early 70s, which is conceivable (its basically a huge chimney) but overall quite stupid.

To be honest, your question seems a bit odd to me considering ladders can actually be used for everything and anything if you want to. They are the simplest tool for descending pitches in a cave. Climbing deep pitches on electron ladders requires quite a different kind of fitness to SRT though, mainly a lot more arms.

As Dave says, if you want truly tackle-free deep caving then OFD is the cave to go to.
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Offline Fulk

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2019, 11:32:39 am »
Quote
To be honest, your question seems a bit odd to me considering ladders can actually be used for everything and anything if you want to.

I assumed that the OP meant 'Deepest cave without much vertical stuff needing equipment (ladders or rope).'

Offline PeteHall

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2019, 11:38:47 am »
As Dave says, if you want truly tackle-free deep caving then OFD is the cave to go to.
At 228m deep and requiring virtually no tackle, Charterhouse has to be up there on the UK list.

Not that that helps much for a Dales trip...
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Offline marysboy

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2019, 11:56:54 am »
are you allowing trips that require diving?

and - as a spin-off - what dales-ish bit of cave has the lowest known elevation?  :-\

Offline tobyk

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2019, 11:57:29 am »
I sometimes find the term deepest quite contrived. Surely it’s the deepest point of a cave ie most rock above your head, rather than when you do a through trip and emerge at a resurgence. Many dales potholes, you’ve got a good idea when you get to the bottom, you’re at the deepest physical point. Ingleborough cave or white scar surely have plenty of rock above your head, and are so deep, without the need for gear. Maybe the total amount of descent is more suitable terminology?

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2019, 12:46:27 pm »
I'm hoping from this thread that I can glean a few decent non-vertical trips for the ladder-phobic of us.


Offline langcliffe

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2019, 01:11:11 pm »
and - as a spin-off - what dales-ish bit of cave has the lowest known elevation?  :-\

Gavel upstream sump?

Offline Alex

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2019, 01:11:42 pm »
Entering Boundary then heading to the downstream sump at the end of the main drain has to be about 100m depth? no pitches at all if you free climb the 8m pitch in boundary (I always have).

Also on the Notts 2 trip if you know the way you can go all the way to the downstream sump in Lost John's main drain. You can avoid SRT entirely on that route too provided you fit through the squeeze connection into the bottom of Boxhead (Already at least 110m deep there) and then through the tube.
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Offline langcliffe

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2019, 01:13:32 pm »
Entering Boundary then heading to the downstream sump at the end of the main drain has to be about 100m depth? no pitches at all if you free climb the 8m pitch in boundary (I always have)

As I guestimated in my message above, about 107 metres.

Offline Alex

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2019, 01:14:34 pm »
Sorry I missed that one. But See my edited post about Notts 2 to Lost Johns sump rather than just to the bottom of Notts 2.
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Offline mikem

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2019, 01:42:36 pm »
Although normally referring to distance below a surface, it doesn't always e.g. deep in the woods ...

If you include diving then it is presumably Boundary Pot to the bottom of Gavel at about 180m, although I very much doubt it's ever been done. Roaring at 130m seems a pretty good candidate. Swinsto to valley entrance would come in at about 120m (if you allowed abseiling).

Depending on the depth of Lost John's (I've found figures of 145m & 211m - to bottom of sump?), first gives 110m below Notts ll entrance, the other 175m (inc. technical diving?). Altitude of Notts ll is 50m below that of Boxhead.

Mike
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 01:54:33 pm by mikem »

Offline steviet_scg

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2019, 02:02:39 pm »
Not quite sure of the actual depth - but with only a couple of ladders you can nearly bottom Birks Fell - must be over 100m down at the top of Shale. Doesn't beat those already mentioned - but it such a great place I thought it was worth mentioning.
Steve

Offline PeteHall

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2019, 02:08:20 pm »
I sometimes find the term deepest quite contrived. Surely it’s the deepest point of a cave ie most rock above your head, rather than when you do a through trip and emerge at a resurgence. Many dales potholes, you’ve got a good idea when you get to the bottom, you’re at the deepest physical point. Ingleborough cave or white scar surely have plenty of rock above your head, and are so deep, without the need for gear. Maybe the total amount of descent is more suitable terminology?

I had taken "deepest" in the sense that it appears on a cave survey, as in the total vertical range.

This could apply equally to a through trip as a down and up trip, though obviously the sporting nature of the trip would be very different.

 
I'm hoping from this thread that I can glean a few decent non-vertical trips for the ladder-phobic of us.
Perhaps "longest" (time or distance?) non-srt trip would be more use in this case...
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Offline langcliffe

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2019, 02:10:21 pm »

If you include diving then it is presumably Boundary Pot to the bottom of Gavel at about 180m, although I very much doubt it's ever been done. Roaring at 130m seems a pretty good candidate. Swinsto to valley entrance would come in at about 120m (if you allowed abseiling).
Mike

I'm not sure what you are referring to here - the deepest cave in the Dales, or the OP's original question? If the former, then the deepest is (possibly) Large Pot to the bottom of Gavel upstream sump at about 253 metres. If the latter, you have three pitches between Boundary and the bottom of Gavel, two in the Earby Series and one in Pippikin.

Offline mikem

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2019, 02:23:43 pm »
Okay, I didn't know if there were pitches between the dives, so discount that one. That leaves Notts ll to bottom of Lost John's at 175m (if you include diving). How deep can you get without cylinders?

 Birks Fell is listed on cavemaps as 142m, so is up there in the running...

Offline langcliffe

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2019, 03:17:29 pm »
Okay, I didn't know if there were pitches between the dives, so discount that one. That leaves Notts ll to bottom of Lost John's at 175m (if you include diving). How deep can you get without cylinders?

214 metres, apparently.

I was wrong about the three pitches - one can do it with just the 88' pitch. But the route is half a galaxy outside my septuagenarian comfort zone, so it had escaped my memory!

Offline Ed

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2019, 03:52:10 pm »
GG in May or August

Offline mikem

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2019, 03:57:32 pm »
What depth can you get to from the bottom of the winch?

Offline Alex

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2019, 04:08:38 pm »
Depends if falling counts, because you could fall down that 40m pitch below flood to get lower but that's still only -140m. More seriously you can get to the bottom of mud hall which is about -130~m?
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Offline langcliffe

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2019, 04:22:24 pm »
Depends if falling counts, because you could fall down that 40m pitch below flood to get lower but that's still only -140m. More seriously you can get to the bottom of mud hall which is about -130~m?

Mud Hall isn't actually as deep as one would first guess, as you start way, way above the Main Chamber floor level. According to the PUSA survey the sump in Hensler's Master Cave is lower than the bottom of Mud Hall. We won't really know, though, until the new survey is published.

Offline benshannon

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2019, 05:58:25 pm »
Thanks for the replies guys. The reason I ask is that I have a little challenge in my head. I would like to do the deepest vertical possible then go and do the highest possible (scafell pike) in England in a day. My friend who caves doesn't do SRT so I'm thinking about options

Offline TheBitterEnd

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2019, 08:04:03 pm »
If you want greatest vertical range between the bottom of a cave and the top of Scafell pike then I wouldn't be surprised if some little grot-hole around Morecambe bay wasn't a contender. All the classic dales caves start quite a way above sea level.
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Offline PeteHall

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2019, 08:28:21 pm »
Or Sandy Hole on Portland, which I believe also boasts the longest crawl in the UK   :thumbsup:
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Offline alanw

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2019, 08:55:53 pm »
Many years ago, some friends of mine bottomed the Berger, then ascended Mont Blanc over the course of just a few days.  A quick Google turns up some SWCC members having done the same, cycling from one to the other.

Offline mikem

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2019, 10:50:44 pm »
If you want greatest vertical range between the bottom of a cave and the top of Scafell pike then I wouldn't be surprised if some little grot-hole around Morecambe bay wasn't a contender. All the classic dales caves start quite a way above sea level.
Apparently Creek Cave fills at high tide...

Offline David Rose

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2019, 02:19:31 pm »
Paul Mackrill did the Berger - Mt Blanc trip with the journey between on a bicycle to celebrate his 50th birthday.

Anyway. So what is the deepest cave that doesn't need tackle anywhere in the world?

Offline moorebooks

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2019, 02:43:15 pm »
As you are in the lakes how about going into Coniston Copper Mine, through the drainage adit I reckon to the top of the Old Man there would be a good lid on top?


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Offline glyders

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2019, 07:59:09 am »
Thanks for the replies guys. The reason I ask is that I have a little challenge in my head. I would like to do the deepest vertical possible then go and do the highest possible (scafell pike) in England in a day. My friend who caves doesn't do SRT so I'm thinking about options
Shame this is no longer open: http://www.solwayshorestories.co.uk/shore-stories/coalmines-under-the-sea/
it would have given a massive range doable in a day!

Offline Boy Engineer

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2019, 05:41:28 pm »
Arguably the deepest possible non-SRT trip not in a cave (based on semantics) would be the Boulby Potash rock shaft, as it is serviced by a Blair Multiple Rope winder, with two ropes per skip. I’ve ridden it on top of the skip
for a shaft inspection and it is beyond awe-inspiring. That would add just over a kilometre to Scafell Pike; more if you go further in-bye.

Offline andys

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2019, 07:01:22 pm »
Also in the Lakes - and also doable without cage riding! - is Greenside Mine at Glenridding. I don't know if its still open but it used to be possible to enter at the Glencoin Level (approx 600m OD?) and make your way down to Lucy Tongue Level (approx 365m OD?) - so a drop of approx 770ft. This could mostly be done on the old miners wooden ladders - which were in a reasonable condition - though for one shortish section you had to take your own ladder. Origianlly you had to go back up again to get out but Lucy Tongue Level has since been opened up so - assuming you can still get through - that's a fair drop for a "ladders only" trip. And not that far from Scafell Pike either.
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Offline alex17595

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2019, 03:11:01 pm »
If your feeling adventurous Cwmorthin is a mere 9 miles hike from Snowdon. I know its slightly cheating as it goes underground under a ridge so the stats say its deeper than it is.

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2019, 04:44:20 pm »
Years ago I did Cwmorthin, out through ****** and then back to Lake Adit over the ridge..... :lol: ::)
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Offline emma7027

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Re: deepest Non SRT cave?
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2019, 12:37:26 pm »
Also in the Lakes - and also doable without cage riding! - is Greenside Mine at Glenridding. I don't know if its still open but it used to be possible to enter at the Glencoin Level (approx 600m OD?) and make your way down to Lucy Tongue Level (approx 365m OD?) - so a drop of approx 770ft. This could mostly be done on the old miners wooden ladders - which were in a reasonable condition - though for one shortish section you had to take your own ladder. Origianlly you had to go back up again to get out but Lucy Tongue Level has since been opened up so - assuming you can still get through - that's a fair drop for a "ladders only" trip. And not that far from Scafell Pike either.

Both Glencoyne & Lucy Tongue entrances are now gated with the key available from CATMHS.  The ladders have deteriorated or disappeared on a lot of the pitches now and will need to be rigged.  Digging out Lucy Tongue was a fantastic effort and it is still open.

It is a brilliant trip.