Author Topic: AGM club votes  (Read 972 times)

Offline MarkS

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AGM club votes
« on: April 30, 2019, 08:41:26 am »
According to the notice of the AGM on the BCA website, "each Group may send one voting delegate who must bring with them a letter signed by an officer giving them the authority to represent that group".

If the person representing a group is themselves an officer of that group (which I imagine is not uncommon), presumably no letter is required (since they could just write themselves one)? Or do they need a letter from a second officer of the group?

Offline mikem

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2019, 09:07:47 am »
Otherwise, how would they prove they are an officer of the group?

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Offline Cavematt

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2019, 09:55:29 am »
I suggest a letter is still required so that the BCA Secretary can provide physical evidence (if challenged) that all voting reps had authority and who gave that authority. Relying on verbal communication at the start of the meeting provides no record.

For five years I have been writing an annual letter as Chair of York Caving Club, to myself, as Secretary of the CNCC, to allow YCC voting at our AGMs  :lol:

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Offline GarDouth

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2019, 10:37:56 am »
Although it doesn't seem to be required at the moment I would have thought that getting another officer to also sign the letter in such a circumstance would be good practice. To be a BCA member group there has to be three officers I think.
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Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2019, 06:08:15 pm »
To be a BCA member group there has to be three officers I think.
Pedant that I am, two; see http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=membership:club_criteria.

And for those who wonder at all of this detail; well there is history of a group of people creating clubs, paying the sub and then having sufficent numbers to sway the voting. 

Online PeteHall

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2019, 07:50:00 pm »
And for those who wonder at all of this detail; well there is history of a group of people creating clubs, paying the sub and then having sufficent numbers to sway the voting.

And people say that the two house system isn't flawed...
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Online cavemanmike

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2019, 12:03:28 am »
Like I have ALREADY said.
One man one vote 😁

Offline topcat

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2019, 03:09:25 am »
I'm a member of three clubs, none of which have ever in the past five years  consulted the membership regarding how the club representative should vote.   Maybe they chat through the issues with a few mates  ,  maybe they just vote as they see fit.  Who knows !?

One man, one vote.  Indeed.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2019, 07:11:14 am »
Like I have ALREADY said.
One man one vote 😁
Women get two votes?

Offline Madness

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2019, 07:30:47 am »
I'm a member of three clubs, none of which have ever in the past five years  consulted the membership regarding how the club representative should vote.   Maybe they chat through the issues with a few mates  ,  maybe they just vote as they see fit.  Who knows !?

One man, one vote.  Indeed.

This is exactly the issue that needs to be addressed. I doubt that many clubs consult with their membership about which way to vote.

Offline BradW

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2019, 09:33:40 am »
How a club goes about it's business is their business. So address that within the club itself if you are a member of such a club. It's no concern of anyone else, no matter how much you might not approve. It will be a sad world when a representative body starts telling the bodies it represents how to undertake its own affairs.

Offline MarkS

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2019, 12:30:34 pm »
How a club goes about it's business is their business. So address that within the club itself if you are a member of such a club. It's no concern of anyone else, no matter how much you might not approve. It will be a sad world when a representative body starts telling the bodies it represents how to undertake its own affairs.

I am inclined to agree with your point that members should hold clubs accountable for how they are represented in the house of groups.

However, a "club" can be formed by any 2 people, and would have the same sway in the house of groups as a fully democratic club that is much larger. This absolutely should be a concern to others. If a representative body has no real influence over what comprises a voting member, there is clearly a problem. Imagine if the UK parliament decided to swap our constituencies for groups of 2 or more people that we could decide upon amongst ourselves, each of which has an equal weight regardless of the number of members...

Offline crickleymal

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2019, 12:32:40 pm »
Like I have ALREADY said.
One man one vote 😁

Or if you're the Patrician of Ankh Morpork (look it up) it is indeed one man one vote. He was the man, he had the vote. There's always the scorpion pits if you disagree.
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Offline Ian Ball

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2019, 01:13:37 pm »
Reminded me of a little lesson I learned from a politics student. 

Delegate : A person elected or chosen to vote as a group directs
Representative : A person elected or chosen to vote as they see fit for the good of their group

ib

Offline BradW

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2019, 01:26:12 pm »
How a club goes about it's business is their business. So address that within the club itself if you are a member of such a club. It's no concern of anyone else, no matter how much you might not approve. It will be a sad world when a representative body starts telling the bodies it represents how to undertake its own affairs.

I am inclined to agree with your point that members should hold clubs accountable for how they are represented in the house of groups.

However, a "club" can be formed by any 2 people, and would have the same sway in the house of groups as a fully democratic club that is much larger. This absolutely should be a concern to others. If a representative body has no real influence over what comprises a voting member, there is clearly a problem. Imagine if the UK parliament decided to swap our constituencies for groups of 2 or more people that we could decide upon amongst ourselves, each of which has an equal weight regardless of the number of members...

Therefore the issue lies with BCA's lax definition of what defines a club or interested group, not with how said club runs itself. Stricter guidelines on club definition might make the system work.

Offline MarkS

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2019, 01:32:36 pm »
Therefore the issue lies with BCA's lax definition of what defines a club or interested group, not with how said club runs itself. Stricter guidelines on club definition might make the system work.

Or the issue lies with having a non-representative voting house (of groups) alongside a representative voting house (of individiuals).

Offline BradW

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2019, 01:58:17 pm »
Therefore the issue lies with BCA's lax definition of what defines a club or interested group, not with how said club runs itself. Stricter guidelines on club definition might make the system work.

Or the issue lies with having a non-representative voting house (of groups) alongside a representative voting house (of individiuals).
Well, as someone who passionately believes in clubs per se being able to express views or raise issues, to remove any form of representation at that level would be a retrograde step. So I cannot agree with you. If clubs are denied representation, and the BCA is only going to voice the opinions of individuals, then you would expect to see clubs no longer wanting to be part of BCA. However, the  stranglehold of insurance cover would keep them on side. That seems unacceptable.

Offline mikem

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2019, 02:49:23 pm »
But which is actually more representative of the rest of us? The individuals who can afford / be bothered / live close enough to attend, or club reps who are funded by their membership...

In the other discussion, someone said the two houses had rarely disagreed since this system was installed - most of the problems were beforehand.

BTW - Bob's link shows clubs must have minimum 4 members & 2 officers (plus submit a constitution).

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Offline andrewmc

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2019, 03:52:11 pm »
Clubs have individuals. If they feel strongly about an issue, they can canvas their membership and recommend they vote a certain way.

If the membership are unwilling to vote as directed by their club committee then maybe the club committee shouldn't have been taking that position, given that it doesn't represent their own membership...

If their own membership can't be bothered, then it obviously isn't that important to the club. The club is the members of the club, not its committee (and I'm saying this as a club committee member)...

Offline Jenny P

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2019, 04:02:05 pm »
There is actually quite a straightforward definition of what constitutes a "club" for the purposes of joining BCA as a club.  This was hammered out way back when BCA was first set up and you will find it somewhere on the BCA website.  It's to do with what is in the club's constitution and the club has to provide a copy of its constitution when it applies.

With regard to authorising representatives at meetings, what DCA has always done is to appoint its representative for the year at its AGM for both the BCA AGM and BCA Council and to minute this.  The rep. then hands in to the BCA meeting a copy of the minute stating the name of the rep. and signed by the Secretary or Chairman.  (The Minutes are available online for anyone to check, should they need to.)  Any club which appoints its rep. at a club meeting and presents a signed copy of the relevant minute should have no problem.

It's then up to the club, or whatever, to arrange some way of discussing with its members before the BCA meeting what the general view of the club is on the proposals being put.  To my mind this is as democratic as you possibly can be, given that not all of the club members will be interested enough to either want to discuss the agenda at a club meeting or to attend the BCA meeting.

Offline mikem

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2019, 04:09:46 pm »
But most members are blissfully unaware what BCA are up to coz they don't see a newsletter - & so the merry go round goes on...

Offline NewStuff

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2019, 05:20:24 pm »
Therefore the issue lies with BCA's lax definition of what defines a club or interested group, not with how said club runs itself. Stricter guidelines on club definition might make the system work.

Having set up a club that was formerly a BCA member club, I don't think it's a lax definition at all. I seem to remember that they're pretty clear what you need to become a club.
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Offline mikem

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2019, 05:51:30 pm »
Yep, it's in the 5th post, not that most people seem to have bothered reading it.

Offline BradW

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2019, 10:49:58 am »
Yes, there is a clear definition of a club. What is lacking is a sensible way to stop people abusing the process. Some clubs have provisional levels of membership. Perhaps this is required, so that a club will not get voting privileges until they have been part of the BCA for at least 12 months. That would prevent someone taking advantage of the process in the short term.

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2019, 01:00:18 pm »
No we don't need to restrict the taking the mick option, we need to get to a place where no one feels the need, or the axe grinders are outweighed by sensibles. I mean it doesn't happen often as people don't generally want to engage due to the possibility of dying in the petty boredom.

I'd like to point out the are plenty of opportunities to engage with the 'civil service' of caving in the areas that 90% agree on that don't get involved in the politics - Youth and Development (there's a large section that doesn't see council), the various special interest groups, cave surveying etc.

Offline BradW

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2019, 01:09:50 pm »
I was merely addressing the point made by someone that this could or does happen. Otherwise I agree with you. If it isn't an issue, then fine, and people should stop suggesting it is, and if it is an issue then it needs sorting out.

Offline mikem

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2019, 01:15:56 pm »
I'm pretty sure it hasn't been a problem since it stopped being club only voting, much easier nowadays to rabble rouse & get a majority of individuals at the meeting...

Offline droid

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2019, 02:45:09 pm »
No we don't need to restrict the taking the mick option, we need to get to a place where no one feels the need,

Sadly, it looks like any movement to get there will be stymied by the micky takers.
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Offline mikem

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Re: AGM club votes
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2019, 03:19:25 pm »
People will only do something once the status quo goes too far beyond their liking. If someone perverted the course of an AGM, then an EGM could be called if enough objections were forthcoming.