Author Topic: winnats Head survey? (Read 7867 times)

benshannon · « **on:** October 28, 2019, 03:55:14 pm »

hey, im going to winnats head tomorrow with some friends. one knows the cave very well, but i always like to have a survey just for my own happiness. however, previous searches on here and in my caves of the peak district are fruitless. has anyone got a survey they wouldnt mind sending me please?

thanks

Rob · « **Reply #1 on:** October 28, 2019, 03:59:26 pm »

Here's one. Might not be of much use for navigational purposes though...

benshannon · « **Reply #2 on:** October 28, 2019, 04:21:41 pm »

many thanks

pwhole · « **Reply #3 on:** October 31, 2019, 06:13:43 pm »

I found a few half-completed basic plan surveys of Winnats Head recently in the Chapel library, possibly made by John Beck, or maybe Chris Fox - I'd never seen anything in plan before and it was very useful to see, though sadly I think it only went down to Fox Chamber area. That would be a good one to have, especially as regards overlaying it on surface features.

alastairgott · « **Reply #4 on:** November 01, 2019, 07:21:58 am »

Well if it was Foxy, then we'd be able to modernise it, i'm sure.

or failing that would make a good new project for people wanting to learn how to be cold and productive.

Tseralo · « **Reply #5 on:** November 01, 2019, 09:44:28 am »

Quote from: alastairgott on November 01, 2019, 07:21:58 am

Well if it was Foxy, then we'd be able to modernise it, i'm sure.

or failing that would make a good new project for people wanting to learn how to be cold and productive.

Its on the survex model so someone must have the data.

SamT · « **Reply #6 on:** November 01, 2019, 01:24:38 pm »

I've got all the data, original survey notes, original sketches etc from John beck down to fox chamber and the extensions beyond the sewer from Pete Ward.

Its all on the survex model and I have a half drawn up therion model. Ran out of time/energy to persevere through the vagaries of therion to complete it all.

Phil - if you're ever passing - pop in for a brew and I can let you have it all.

alastairgott · « **Reply #7 on:** November 01, 2019, 05:30:25 pm »

Sam, if you want me to have a crack at it, or i'm helping to run a course for SUSS on survey training in the new year. It might be a good task, and in a cave which a few of them like a lot.

Guess there might be about 12+ SUSS which I'll be giving an insight into Therion, so If I give say 6 of them the Plan stuff to look at and 6 of them the Elevation, I think we could have a good therion file set for it at the end of a weekend.

SUSS are raring to go though, I had to say no to them for two weeks time. I've got a weekend at the Library next weekend geeking, so just wanted some exercise on the 15th/16th rather than computer-ing.

SqueezyPete · « **Reply #8 on:** November 02, 2019, 05:14:44 pm »

Judging by the survey that was posted we found a rope in Fox Chamber. Just dangling down from the roof with a rebelay and no discernible (to my eyes) way it could have been installed from the bottom, any idea where it came from/goes to?

Graigwen · « **Reply #9 on:** November 02, 2019, 05:16:43 pm »

Quote from: SqueezyPete on November 02, 2019, 05:14:44 pm

Judging by the survey that was posted we found a rope in Fox Chamber. Just dangling down from the roof with a rebelay and no discernible (to my eyes) way it could have been installed from the bottom, any idea where it came from/goes to?

Is it part of the Indian Rope Trick?

martinb · « **Reply #10 on:** November 02, 2019, 09:12:59 pm »

Quote from: SqueezyPete on November 02, 2019, 05:14:44 pm

Judging by the survey that was posted we found a rope in Fox Chamber. Just dangling down from the roof with a rebelay and no discernible (to my eyes) way it could have been installed from the bottom, any idea where it came from/goes to?

Its a fair few years since I went into Winnats Head, I seem to rememeber someone saying there was a couple of tubes and a dig at high level......

Goydenman · « **Reply #11 on:** November 03, 2019, 09:48:56 am »

Quote from: martinb on November 02, 2019, 09:12:59 pm

Quote from: SqueezyPete on November 02, 2019, 05:14:44 pm
Judging by the survey that was posted we found a rope in Fox Chamber. Just dangling down from the roof with a rebelay and no discernible (to my eyes) way it could have been installed from the bottom, any idea where it came from/goes to?

Its a fair few years since I went into Winnats Head, I seem to rememeber someone saying there was a couple of tubes and a dig at high level......

The rope to the roof was climbed from the chamber nothing significant found. Part way down Cornwall Avenue before Fox chamber is traverse along wall into tubes, Harper Hill series with abandoned dig at the mud sump.

SamT · « **Reply #12 on:** November 03, 2019, 09:08:43 pm »

Been meaning to post since I saw this.

As Chris says, modern lighting revealed some inlet type tubes in the roof of Fox Chamber. Dan Hibberts and (I think) Rob Eavis bolt climbed the side of the chamber to investigate, but they were blind. I think it was on the cover of Descent mag (Dan with war paint on IIRC). The rope was abandoned. Guess it should really be gotten rid off. (Rig a pull through and pull the rope down after you??).

We surveyed the Harper Hill series a few years ago. I wondered if the water/sump at the downstream end of it, connected through to the water/mud that enters from the right, at the rock bridge, half way up the 'up pitches' However, the survey doesn't line up. Could be an error in the survey, but I think everything seems to add up ok. Dye test would confirm it for definite.

Rob · « **Reply #13 on:** November 04, 2019, 10:20:08 am »

Sam's right, me n Dan put that rope in Fox Chamber. It didn't go anywhere so we probably should have derigged it but didn't have enough time or a long enough rope. And yes, not the prettiest picture of Dan!

Quote from: alastairgott on November 01, 2019, 05:30:25 pm

Sam, if you want me to have a crack at it, or i'm helping to run a course for SUSS on survey training in the new year. It might be a good task, and in a cave which a few of them like a lot.

Great to hear some SUSS people might be keen. Winnats Head is a nice survey project that would benefit from a complete redoing (the 3D model has data from 4 different teams, much from the 70s and 80s), but it's certainly not any easy project for beginners and not in one weekend! Just getting all the data would take many trips.

Sam, not sure we have your Harper Hill data....?

alastairgott · « **Reply #14 on:** November 04, 2019, 03:24:02 pm »

Was thinking about with the sketches we could stitch it all together to get an idea how to do so when you’ve got trad or electronic out of the cave.

If there’s any bits which need more detail, then they can go back in at a later date and stitch them into the bits which Sam has.

pwhole · « **Reply #15 on:** November 04, 2019, 09:27:28 pm »

This would be a great thing to get moving if possible. And Sam, I often am passing, so may take you up on that offer of a brew sometime anyway

Wardy · « **Reply #16 on:** November 04, 2019, 10:17:04 pm »

Gents
I am happy to assist with advice on this which would be a great project and there are still a number of areas of interest that are often overlooked yet require attention.
At the same time it would also be worthwhile re doing the dye testing as this has never been completed properly.

I carried out the survey from Fox chamber onwards which due to the chokes and damp was challenging, but somewhat overshadowed by poor politics from the established clubs. The eventual survey was completed without aid from those credited and it is still disappointing that the credits in the Caves of the Peak District are incorrect.

A nice complete re survey of the lot gets my vote and should be a catalyst to revisiting the leads.
Wardy

benshannon · « **Reply #17 on:** November 05, 2019, 10:16:22 am »

There are a few of us at NUCC that would defo help. It was sad to see in fox chamber that people have put big mud hand prints and thrown mud balls onto the beautiful clean calcite walls. Maybe this could be cleaned off? I did take photos

Badlad · « **Reply #18 on:** November 05, 2019, 02:14:25 pm »

Quote from: Wardy on November 04, 2019, 10:17:04 pm

......
I carried out the survey from Fox chamber onwards which due to the chokes and damp was challenging, but somewhat overshadowed by poor politics from the established clubs. The eventual survey was completed without aid from those credited and it is still disappointing that the credits in the Caves of the Peak District are incorrect.
......

I'd like to hear more about this story. Sounds intriguing. Nothing worse than being written out of history

alastairgott · « **Reply #19 on:** November 05, 2019, 04:47:36 pm »

Wardy, are you pretty happy that the centreline through the cave is accurate? Or would you go for a full resurvey?

alastairgott · « **Reply #20 on:** November 05, 2019, 06:09:00 pm »

Just had another look at the survex, I can see that quite a bit of it IS yours wardy

I think we could get quite a way with what sketches you and Sam have already.

alastairgott · « **Reply #21 on:** November 05, 2019, 10:11:00 pm »

Just logged into my email and had one from Rob. I've got the survex data which I can convert into the data which drives therion quite easily. and I've got plan sketches of various parts of the cave of which Wardy's is one. That'll save an initial trip to the end to get a full plan.

Though as both Rob and Wardy have said, probably best in the long term to redo. So it'll probably be a case of making data redundant in the long term, and making some prime points on either side of the choke to fix the survey before the choke and after the choke.

Judging by the other year, SUSS had their Expedition training a couple of months into the calendar year, so not long to wait

SamT · « **Reply #22 on:** November 05, 2019, 11:14:41 pm »

I've got a fairly advanced therion file. I'll get it over to you - (need to spark up an older laptop some time).

Rob - I thought I'd put the Harpur Hill stuff in the Peak Master folder - is that not the case??

SamT · « **Reply #23 on:** November 06, 2019, 08:32:07 am »

Knew there was a history tread on here somewhere - found it.

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=4757.msg68224#msg68224

Begs the question - what happened to the wiki - is it still alive??

SamT · « **Reply #24 on:** November 06, 2019, 08:49:09 am »

Also - for completeness - survey history.

John Beck and Ben Bentham surveyed from entrance to Fox Chamber.
Pete Ward and Disley Underground Group, (Lofty Loftus?) discovered and surveyed down from fox chamber, through the sewer and beyond into the streamway pitches.
Myself and Jon Pemberton of the Eldon, surveyed the Harpur Hill series.

My aim was always to produce a decent high grade publishable section (which everyone is probably familar with) but also a plan, which is sadly lacking and would give a good idea of potential leads.

Be good if we can get the project up and running again.