winnats Head survey?

[A_Northerner]

Keen to help out with anything - Winnats is my #1 Derbyshire Cave, didn't realise there were still projects down there.

[SamT]

I can let you know a few key survey stations from the original survey that would be good to use again, just so they tie the old surveys and new surveys together.  In fact, could be persuaded out of retirement to join a surveying trip.

[benshannon]

What's the harbour hill series? Is it worth an explore? We just went down to the sump

[alastairgott]

Begs the question - what happened to the wiki - is it still alive??

seems to still be in the bowels of the internet https://ukcaving.com/wiki/index.php?title=Winnat%27s_Head_Cave

[Goydenman]

What's the harbour hill series? Is it worth an explore? We just went down to the sump

Harper Hill Series as in Harper Hill Buxton. Fascinating old series hidden behind wall of Cornwall Avenue…...crawl into rift going upwards to the right and down to the left. Left ends at a mud sump. Was dug by the use of dams but did not manage to get a way on.

[pwhole]

I'd be particularly interested to know the bearing of the vein that traverses the roof of the big sump pool at the base of the chokes. Also, has anyone else noticed the large amount of mineral gravel in that area? There are a few 'lost' mines in the Winnats Head area, and whilst I doubt miners found their way down there, it also doesn't look that naturally shattered. I've seen a piece of dark purple fluorite in there somewhere higher up that was the size of a beachball, and I seem to remember I found a piece of galena last time I was down there - I left it at the base of the vertical squeeze. It's a fascinating place and no mistake.

[SamT]

Harper hill series is worth a poke.  Its quite pokey getting in/out of it, as you traverse on a ledge and the drop quite quickly becomes ankle breaking height with a weird move to get into/out of the crawl.

I wasn't overly struck with potential leads in there.

I've always thought there is a lot of what look like tailings in the chokes phil.

perhaps the survey team to could measure the bearing on that vein.  Its quite substantial.

[pwhole]

If you look along Longcliffe Vein on the Survex model, with Victoria Aven nearest you, Winnats Head lines up perfectly, with the vein line cutting through the pass twice, going near Buttress Hole on the other side. I'm not saying it's relevant yet, just interesting. But I do wonder if the vein is the same one. John Beck's PhD thesis briefly touches on the 'Longcliffe Swallets', which were active when the shale line was way higher than it is now, and I suspect that Winnats Head and possibly Middle Bank Pot were possible input points at their relevant dates. There's a few other interesting fluted but choked holes I've found up there on top that all look like they used to take a surface stream when the water table was higher - one about 50m south off the line of Faucet Rake in some weird 'gruffy ground' that trends toward the top of Cowlow Nick. You can see it clearly on Google Earth. Given that the Longcliffe shaft is a vein cavity and the Halfway House Series also has large examples, it does suggest there may be a line of vertical cavern development that could produce another couple of these somewhere in the hill. Middle Bank Pot especially.

I did really ponder how the miners could have got in to Winnats Head, if indeed they did, as that mineral gravel really does look like riddled spoil, but the only other 'entrance' seen from underground is the choked dig at the back of Main Chamber, and that certainly wasn't accessible in mining times. Poking around in the entrance choke earlier this year, Domee and me found another possible wriggle downwards up and to the right of the present entrance, but we didn't push it. Of course the face of the quarry has collapsed a lot so it may have been a bit easier to get into in the 18th century. But the original diggers opened it up, so I just can't see it. Maybe if it functioned as a swallet after partial phreatic development on the vein the force of the water was sufficient to shatter the vein and dump it all at the bottom, so it's all naturally-produced?

[A_Northerner]

I'd be particularly interested to know the bearing of the vein that traverses the roof of the big sump pool at the base of the chokes. Also, has anyone else noticed the large amount of mineral gravel in that area? There are a few 'lost' mines in the Winnats Head area, and whilst I doubt miners found their way down there, it also doesn't look that naturally shattered. I've seen a piece of dark purple fluorite in there somewhere higher up that was the size of a beachball, and I seem to remember I found a piece of galena last time I was down there - I left it at the base of the vertical squeeze. It's a fascinating place and no mistake.

I've probably stumbled across the same bit of fluorite down there a few times as well - I've left it on display in Fox Chamber so I can give one of my boring geology talks to freshers when I take them down there!

Would be interesting to find out how the spoil might have got down there, but I suppose we may never know.

[Goydenman]

After we found Fox chamber I met old man Revell at Bagshaw he said he’d been in there. Explained how he went down a mine shaft scared out of his mind as a youth in a kibble. They broke through to a large chamber with exit the far side blocked. He could not remember formations and description I thought matched Main chamber better. I dug that passage at the far side a bit. Noticed how far it’s been dug now...no way did he come in there.....perhaps he was right and it was Fox chamber. Do you know what the mine is he would have gone down at the top of the pass?

[pwhole]

There were possibly up to three mines in Winnats Pass I think - Winyates Grove for one, but there was also a Winnats Head Mine, I'm certain of it, but no-one knows where either were. One is almost certainly the large spoil heaps above the bend in the road, roughly below Hiatt Cave - there are at least two blocked shafts there. Jim Rieuwerts speculated in the latest Mining History that Winyates Grove could have been an adit entrance at or close to road level that drove into the west end of Longcliffe Vein - as in, the furthest western extremities of the Halfway House Series. One to ponder.  It was owned by the Bagshawes, and they were working it in 1709, at the same time they were getting stuck into Longcliffe Mine and Odin - and the veins around where Treak Cliff is now - was it New Knab Vein? They were busy folk.

The blind mine level higher up on the north side can't have been up to much, but there is an apparent backfilled continuation on the opposite side of the road. Also high up near the natural buttress above and to the NW of Old Tor Mine is a backfilled shaft - me and Scud went up there last year. It could have been a Blue John mine, but then again it could be Winnats Head Mine. I can't think where Mr. Revell might have gone though. There's some old mine remains in the field above Winnats Head just before the Rowter Farm track - possibly that was one of them too? But there is definitely more to find up there, I'm certain of it.

[Mrs Trellis]

The Winnats Pass murders accounts talk of the victims' bodies being hidden in a recently sunk (in 1758)  shaft. Presumably this was in the Winnats and I've always thought that "platform" by the road , after the bend ascending, beneath Hiatt hole to be a prime candidate.  Imho this area will reward investigation if possible.

[Wardy]

Hi Alastair
Sorry for the delay as I was abroad last week and being old school still wait to get home to log on to he internet!!!!!!

Anyway I guess the survey should be pretty good.
Whilst difficult, surveying the choke was in effect a corkscrew descent and so would have little effect on the overall.
Then the main areas of horizontal progress were the easiest to survey and follow a trend.
I did draw up a plan and will look it out, but as progress was mainly vertical it was of less interest.
I was initially keen to look at the top end of the pitches and see where it could re appear, but there is no obvious feature to link it to and we finished it still quite a way below the surface level.
It was one of my hopes that we could have opened a top entrance to the pitches and streamy as it would make a great trip and also provide interesting though trip options.

I understand from Pegasus that you won the training course from Hidden Earth. Whilst the prize may not be ideal for you we could meet up to discuss Winnats and you could have a look round if you like.
Wardy

[aardgoose]

Extract of the peak survex model, with satellite imagery overlaid, north at top. 

Shading by approximate depth below surface.

[MarkS]

I was in Winnats Head when we bumped into Jeff Wade and Glynn(?) digging at the top of the "up pitches" (can't remember the name). If you were quiet you could hear cars going over the cattle grid!

[alastairgott]

Wardy, yep that’s me don’t worry spanset are still in my mind. I’ve got a candidate for you. Pegasus was just going to clarify a fine point with you.

I’ve got Wednesday Thursday off this week for revision for an exam. I could pop over briefly for a break, Aston way is about 30mins away.

[Wardy]

Hi Alastair
Thursday works for me, so if you want to let me know what time suits you - 16.00 may be good?
Pete

[pwhole]

We had a fun TSG trip down Winnats Head today - ten of us I believe. This time I was specifically sniffing out mineral, and there was plenty, once we started looking properly. I found decent-sized lumps of galena in virtually every section of every boulder choke down to the main sump pool, and large amounts of other vein and pipe mineral (especially whorled baryte), both on the floor and still in the walls - several small veins cut through the cavern walls. Lots of blue or black fluorite and some lovely lilac pieces. On the left wall of the approach passage into Down in the Sewer is a large panel of orange fluorite cubes, many well over an inch across. No evidence of mining anywhere, other than the apparent tailings everywhere - however, the field to the west (which also sits above the top of the 'up' pitches) is full of hillocks and hollows, so maybe that was where Winnats Head Grove was, and they were mining the extensions of the veins seen inside Winnats Head? Maybe we are just seeing naturally-smashed vein from a major shake event that also collapsed the cavern, but the whole site is somewhat baffling - I love it.

The vein traversing the roof of the main sump pool is almost exactly E-W, according to my handheld compass, which may not be that accurate. So it has the potential at least to be developed on the same cavernous fault as Halfway House Series/Longcliffe, which is admittedly more NW-SE and would cross the road in Winnats Pass twice to reach WH - but hey, the road wasn't there then, and arguably neither was Winnats Pass

[pwhole]

Actually, looking at the Survex model again, if the splay across the sump pool was central, then the vein is pretty much NW/SE.

[alastairgott]

It was a great trip, I will definitely be back not least to follow up on the surveying with SUSS, but also to continue looking at the lead "No Pete-ons".

[SamT]

So - who's on for pumping the sump then??

Two options

- either large generator on surface (in field above the cliff above entrance) i.e. accessible with landrover/trailer.  100m of cable run down through cave, some hefty pumps in the sump.

- or, digging project just the other side of the sewer.  sink shaft in what looks like easy rubble digging.  Might actually go somewhere,  and if lower than level of sump.  Siphon over from sump into dig.  Max depth though is 10m due to damned physics.

[alastairgott]

I think the prospects are in the floor beyond the sewer. (Or that’s where Pete told me to look!)

Went in with a crowbar to have a look at where the water sinks beyond the sewer. As sam says very promising and fair digging.

Beyond where the water sinks and the rope is a rift in the floor on the right. I’d be interested in taking a pipe and directing the water from the sump straight down this rift to see if it can be washed out.

So both where the water sinks and where the rift is are interesting. If you can extend either then you may be able to drop the sump a little. But the prospects where the water is sinking is probably more interesting.

[Rob]

....the prospects where the water is sinking is probably more interesting.

Maybe, but as long as you don't see the syphoned water in the lower pitches. Easy to test in one trip 

[SamT]

I think where ever you dig in that chamber, just beyond is the sewer is all going to the same place.  Personally, I'd prefer a dryer dig, in the far left corner of the rift, looking from the sewer, where the rubble looks very easy to dig, with two solid walls for pinning scaff into.  Feel pretty confident that the water will all be sinking into the same place.

Even if the water from the big sump cant entirely be emptied.  lowering by a good few meters might make it a bit easier for the divers to push into it, as the'd be at a much shallower depth.

Vis is a major problem at the bottom since everything is silted up.

[alastairgott]

Easy to test in one trip 

Sounds like a good Sunday trip? are you around