Author Topic: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?  (Read 3597 times)

Offline darren

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BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« on: February 02, 2020, 03:00:19 pm »
We have a club trip to the PSM later this year. Obviously we are mandating all attendees have suitable insurance cover.

The organisers have at least two friends who have had to claim using Snowcard for rescue expenses and repatriation after incidents in Europe. The service has always been excellent. In fact it's been so good that some have stated that any additional cost over alternative insurance providers is incidental. They say the last thing they want to worry about whilst being helicoptered off a mountain is how good their insurance is.

Has anyone claimed, been repatriated etc by BCA insurance? If so how did it go? where there any unexpected excursions? or inclusions for that matter.

It would be nice if respondents assumed I was of average intelligence and am capable of reading terms and conditions, comparing cover and costs etc.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 11:23:23 pm by PeteHall, Reason: Title amended. »
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Offline royfellows

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Re: BCA Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2020, 07:49:31 pm »
The BCA insurance is a Public Liability insurance not a personal accident, and to date there has not been any claims.  It is also integral with BCA membership.

Your questions answered here:

https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=legal_insurance:pl_insurance
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Offline darren

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2020, 08:20:47 pm »
Hi Roy, I should have been more specific.

As I was asking a question about a club trip abroad and specifically referenced Snowcard Insurance, I thought people would assume I was asking about the BCA insurance that is similar to Snowcard.

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=25148.0

Sorry about that.

I have asked Moderators to change thread title to include "expedition". I don't like the use of the word as it's a club trip to well explored cave, a bog standard club trip really.

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« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 11:27:00 pm by PeteHall, Reason: Title amended. »
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Offline andrewmc

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2020, 01:59:28 am »
As a new policy I don't believe there will have been any claims yet (and hopefully claims will be very infrequent). The BCA expedition insurance was organised with the broker specifically because there was a concern that some current insurance wouldn't pay out in the event of an expedition rescue (and also that search and rescue limits are often low). The BCA insurance is usually cheaper and has a (slightly) higher S&R limit than Snowcats. As you say, however, many (but not all) people have had no problems claiming off Snowcard insurance.

Offline darren

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2020, 08:09:17 am »
Thank you Andrew.

That has answer my question.
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Offline Benfool

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2020, 08:53:35 am »
I believe there has already been a claim for some lost kit - they paid out without a problem.

B

Offline badger

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2020, 09:48:56 pm »
another reason I believe the BCA went into arranging travel insurance is that many cavers over 65 were unable to get insurance,
also the BCA travel insurance will cover might cover some pre existing medical conditions, again I believe, that some adventurous activity travel insurance precluded any existing conditions. I know of 2 people where the insurance would not cover this. 
However like any insurance it is always best to get more than 1 quote and check they cove your personal needs including any medical issues.
And whilst Snowcard has a proven record of paying out, which is good, all it does is put premiums up, since I first used snowcard 16 years ago it is now over 4 times more expensive than it used to be, and that is not all down to inflation.
And utimately BCA travel insurance has not been around long enough to find out just how good it is, all we know it was arranged with cavers sitting around with the insurance company and telling them what the wanted.

Offline darren

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2020, 10:14:53 pm »
Thanks Badger.

As stated in the OP I have at least 1 and probably 2 people who have been involved in helecopter rescues from European Mountains and subsequent repatriation.

I have to assume they were/are both of at least average intelligence, capable of reading small print, comparing policy's and subsequently choosing and arranging a suitable insurance policy. To be honest they better be good cavers as well as I'm an average caver and am relying on 1 of them to stop me killing myself.

When insurance is discussed the succesful rescues and repatriation by Snowcard are invariably mentioned. I am simply looking for similar examples of BCA Expedition insurance being used in similar situations to balance the discussion.

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Offline badger

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2020, 10:48:27 pm »
think Darren you need to re read my statement,  But to re iterate, BCA travel insurance is only 10 months old, so very difficult to compare to snowcard  that has been around for a very long time, and by all accounts according to ben paid out.  and now getting very expensive, and at least 2 people have had issues due to existing everyday medical conditions, I also know off 2 people but time that by any over 65 who cant get insurance. One of the persons who sat round the table sorting out the travel insurance travels caving all over the world a lot, I am sure he would not have wasted his time if he thought it would not pay out. He is a very educated person.
do the comparison and then go with who you think is right for you,
we all know snowcard has a good reputation,
I know who I will be going with this summer. but that maybe cause I believe it is the right one for me.

Offline darren

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2020, 10:04:04 am »
Badger, I thought I could upset people, but you'r quite good at it as well.

Remember my OP that contained the sentence


It would be nice if respondents assumed I was of average intelligence and am capable of reading terms and conditions, comparing cover and costs etc.

It was added to try to stop your sort of post. Can't you see that?  If people can't understand why I added it and what it meant it is understandable why they have trouble with reading insurance policys.

Every time insurance is mentioned, there is a very strong sales push for BCA Insurance. I've had double glazing sales people stood in my living room who are less pushy. Problem is, when  sales people are this pushy I don't trust them. I'm now at this stage .  If BCA Insurance is so good, why does it have to be sold so hard?
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Online JoshW

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2020, 10:24:18 am »
Badger, I thought I could upset people, but you'r quite good at it as well.

Remember my OP that contained the sentence


It would be nice if respondents assumed I was of average intelligence and am capable of reading terms and conditions, comparing cover and costs etc.

It was added to try to stop your sort of post. Can't you see that?  If people can't understand why I added it and what it meant it is understandable why they have trouble with reading insurance policys.

Every time insurance is mentioned, there is a very strong sales push for BCA Insurance. I've had double glazing sales people stood in my living room who are less pushy. Problem is, when  sales people are this pushy I don't trust them. I'm now at this stage .  If BCA Insurance is so good, why does it have to be sold so hard?

Yikes, wrong side of the bed today chap?

Your question has been answered. One claim, one payment. 100% record so far. You can ignore the rest of the thread now if you think it’s patronising. The bca aren’t going to lose sleep because you choose snowcard over their brokered insurance... :shrug:

Offline mikem

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2020, 10:30:44 am »
If BCA Insurance is so good, why does it have to be sold so hard?
Because it's a new product, for a very limited market, that won't pay for itself if not enough people invest in it.

We are very small beer compared to their Property, Casualty, Marine and Aviation underwriting services at Lloyds.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 10:46:29 am by mikem »

Offline darren

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2020, 10:48:40 am »
If BCA Insurance is so good, why does it have to be sold so hard?
Because it's a new product, for a very limited market, that won't pay for itself if not enough people invest in it.

To be honest, I agree that is probably the reason.

If so why can't we be told? All this high pressure sales stuff is just putting me off.

Institutions like BCA have to tread a fine line when recommending/selling financial products.  Filling gaps in the market is one thing competing with other providers is harder. Who doesn't remember the scandal over Age Uk selling financial products a couple of years ago. If you don't remember I'm sure you can google it.
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Offline BCA Secretary

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2020, 10:52:46 am »
Hi Darren

I am sorry but I have to reject against your accusations that the BCA are being pushy about our insurance.

Firstly, the BCA do NOT sell insurance. The public liability insurance we provide as a benefit of membership. The caver travel/expedition insurance is provided and sold by an insurance company. The BCA's involvement in this is that we have worked with that insurer to make sure the product is appropriate for cavers and covers the necessary eventualities (something most off-the-shelf products do not).

The BCA have chosen to make cavers aware of the availability of this policy through our website, newsletter and social media, because unless we tell people it exists what was the point in working to arrange this?

The BCA has at no point said that the policy we have helped to arranged is better for you, or anyone else, that what else is available on the market (e.g. Snowcard). In fact we have been pretty clear that cavers should assess the policies to see what works best for them.

I am proud that the BCA has put in the work to make such a policy available to cavers, in a marketplace where policies that fit the needs of cavers can be hard to find, and having a choice is extremely welcomed by many cavers.

Your suggestion that the BCA has been more pushy than a double glazing salesman in your living room is an enormous exaggeration, not to mention a little flippant.

Matt Ewles
BCA Secretary
 

Offline MarkS

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2020, 11:30:25 am »
Moderator Comment I'm sure many people have found this an informative and interesting topic. Let's all try and keep any personal comments out of it.

Offline darren

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2020, 11:37:33 am »
That you Matt for your clear statement on the BCA's position regarding Experdition Insurance cover. It is very reassuring.

Our club is going to France this year and we are obviously mandating rescue/repatriation cover for people attending. When insurance is discussed we have several instances of successful use of Snowcard where users have been exceptionally happy with the outcome. The inference being go with Snowcard we know it works. (Yes we know its not best for everybody).

I've said "what about BCA Expedition Insurance, its supposed to be very good". "Hmm" some of  people said I'm sticking with Snowcard, we know it works. I've heard BCA do some sort of Group Expedition insurance shall I find out about it? Yes they said that would be interesting.

As part of finding out I started this thread asking if anyone had used BCA expedition Insurance for rescue /repatriation.

I thought I made it clear I was really only interested in this aspect of the insurance. I could then hopefully  use any examples of successful rescues/repatriation to SUPPORT BCA Expedition Insurance as a good alternative to Snowcard.

Sorry if I've over reacted but I don't like hard sells, especially when I'm doing my best to show BCA Expedition Insurance in a favourable light.  :hug:


Just out of interest Badger it is a Wessex Cave Club trip and you have WCC by your avatar. are you coming?
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Offline paul

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2020, 12:19:37 pm »
FWIW, when I was on a caving trip to France last year I compared my usual Travel Insurance provider to date, which was Snowcard for many years, with the new offering via BCA membership.

After comparing cover and benefits provided by both, I went with the BCA option as it was a lot cheaper. I presume an insurance company can be trusted to deal with any justified claim, so was not concerned that there had not been any caving-related claims to back-up my choice at that time.
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Offline mikem

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2020, 12:46:42 pm »
It's underwritten by a Lloyds of London company that are used to paying out millions for marine insurance (hurricanes / typhoons / burning super yachts - that sort of thing).

Snowcard is underwritten by a Belgian Insurance company which was previously part of Fortis.

Online Mark Wright

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2020, 03:31:06 pm »
We have just got back from a trip to Mulu where we nearly all used the BCA recommended Expedition Insurance policy.

With there being no organised rescue organisations in Mulu the Snowcard policy worked out a fair bit more expensive for a 1 off trip.

Chunky should be able to confirm that he had the annual Snowcard policy which may have made it less expensive than the BCA policy for him.

For me the expedition insurance is only for rescue and repatriation as my standard travel and medical insurance policy that I have for work is what I would make a claim on if I, e.g. lost my baggage or had anything stolen. Many household policies can also cover this and are usually significantly less expensive that the BCA or Snowcard policies.

We can’t really afford to lose a good rescue and repatriation policy and to help make sure we don’t I would rather not burden the BCA policy with claims for lost or stolen equipment.

I wonder how much the BCA policy might be if it only covered rescue and repatriation?

Mark

Offline chunky

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2020, 04:41:12 pm »
We have just got back from a trip to Mulu where we nearly all used the BCA recommended Expedition Insurance policy.

With there being no organised rescue organisations in Mulu the Snowcard policy worked out a fair bit more expensive for a 1 off trip.

Chunky should be able to confirm that he had the annual Snowcard policy which may have made it less expensive than the BCA policy for him.

For me the expedition insurance is only for rescue and repatriation as my standard travel and medical insurance policy that I have for work is what I would make a claim on if I, e.g. lost my baggage or had anything stolen. Many household policies can also cover this and are usually significantly less expensive that the BCA or Snowcard policies.

We can’t really afford to lose a good rescue and repatriation policy and to help make sure we don’t I would rather not burden the BCA policy with claims for lost or stolen equipment.

I wonder how much the BCA policy might be if it only covered rescue and repatriation?

Mark

I actually had the annual multi trip policy via the BCA recommended expedition insurance rather than the single trip as I am planning on more than one project this year.
It was significantly cheaper than the snowcard / dogtag options and the real bonus for me was that after phoning them to check it included cover for my cave diving expedition in Croatia at no extra cost as long as the max depth of the sump was no more than 40m.

Offline Benfool

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2020, 04:45:30 pm »
To upgrade to more serious cave diving was pretty reasonable too! I paid £60 to increase the depth limit and to add mixed gas.

B

Offline andrewmc

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2020, 05:03:35 pm »
Remember my OP that contained the sentence


It would be nice if respondents assumed I was of average intelligence and am capable of reading terms and conditions, comparing cover and costs etc.

It was added to try to stop your sort of post.

I do enjoy the inevitable chaos when someone starts a post on a public forum with the mistaken belief that because they are the original poster they have in some way the right to control what responses people do or do not make on that thread on that public forum ;)

Online Mark Wright

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2020, 05:20:26 pm »
I actually had the annual multi trip policy via the BCA recommended expedition insurance rather than the single trip as I am planning on more than one project this year.
It was significantly cheaper than the snowcard / dogtag options and the real bonus for me was that after phoning them to check it included cover for my cave diving expedition in Croatia at no extra cost as long as the max depth of the sump was no more than 40m.
[/quote]

I remember you saying you had the annual policy but I thought it was through Snowcard. More confirmation that the BCA policy is a really good one.

Mind you, you never know how good any of these policies are until you have to make a claim.

Mark
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 05:45:51 pm by Mark Wright »

Offline darren

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2020, 05:51:11 pm »
Remember my OP that contained the sentence


It would be nice if respondents assumed I was of average intelligence and am capable of reading terms and conditions, comparing cover and costs etc.

It was added to try to stop your sort of post.

I do enjoy the inevitable chaos when someone starts a post on a public forum with the mistaken belief that because they are the original poster they have in some way the right to control what responses people do or do not make on that thread on that public forum ;)

I know, very nieve.

I was hoping to get some examples of sucessful BCA Expedition insurance cliams that could be used in discusions outside this forum.
I know of at least one sucessful insurance based repatriation with a different company  so didn't think it would be so difficult

Oh well, an interesting if ultimately (for me) useless thread.
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Offline mikem

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2020, 07:08:37 pm »
Mind you, you never know how good any of these policies are until you have to make a claim.

Mark
& companies that pay out too easily won't be around long.

Offline badger

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2020, 08:22:06 pm »
Darren not coming PSM as already committed to Matienzo 60th celebrations both running approx the same time. And sorry if I sound like a double glazing salesman, not what I was attempting.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2020, 10:43:52 pm »
I'm aware of one person that may have had to claim on it, but I have not got around to asking them how the paperwork went.
 Loss of equipment rather than injury so probably slightly different.


One other thing I was told at the weekend prior to the OP, is that as Badger says about over 65's this policy doesn't preclude people by age. And for those people who are approaching the otherwise "uninsurable" age of 75  :shrug: , the suggestion was to build up a rapport with the BCA insurer, so when you reach the magic age  ::) The insurer knows you as a named caver of several years without accident or injury.


 Or at least this was the gist I got while I was probably still merry at breakfast on Sunday morning. :blink:

Offline darren

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2020, 08:20:49 am »
How do the insurance companies arrange the rescue/repatriation?

Last time Snowcard did this I believe Snowcard booked flights at short notice (extra legroom) and arranged hospital car from airport. They might have special department for this sort of thing.

I can't imagine BCA Insurance is big enough to have a specialist department.

Does this just get subcontracted? By one, both or all companies that do this sort of insurance. Are we paying different amounts for the work to be subcontracted to the same end company?
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Offline maxb727

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2020, 08:42:35 am »
One thing to note with Snowcard is that the insurance company is just a front name and that the underwriter does change and currently my claim with Snowcard has been a lot harder than a previous one I had.

Id imagine BCA underwriter is of similar size given the information about them above and would have processes in place to sort repatriation either in house or as a reimbursement.

I’m sure this is all obvious information for some but worth noting for others.


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Offline darren

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2020, 08:56:22 am »
Maxb727

That's interesting. I know nothing about how Insurance claims work. I had assumed smaller claims were handled directly by the front company with only larger cliams going to the underwriters.
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Offline maxb727

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2020, 08:59:42 am »
What my post didn’t say directly was:

Comparing previous Snowcard claims for ease of use might not be helpful when their underwriter changes as processes change too and in my experience from a hospital claim in 2013 to a theft from a car in 2019 it’s not as smooth and easy which is frustrating when the price is so much higher nowadays too.

Those in this thread that want to be antagonistic take away the helpfulness of this forum and stop others wanting to post.


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Offline mikem

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2020, 09:21:00 am »
& it's a bit more complicated again by the front company (BCA / Snowcard) using an insurance broker to find the underwriter. Out of the three I don't know who does what on claims, but any of them can hold it up.

I'm not sure you can compare a hospital claim to a theft, as the former is much easier to prove (provided you keep the paperwork) & often requires the company to deal with it much quicker anyway.

Offline paul

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2020, 12:20:53 pm »
Also going on previous experience with an insurance claim isn't always a guarantee of future experience. For example, a few years ago a neighbour crunched the wing or my parked car after a slide in the snow. I mad a claim on my car insurance and was contacted by a third-party to arrange a hire car while my car was in for repairs. They dropped off the hire car and collected it when my car was returned after the repair work was complete. Excellent, all went smoothly.

A couple of years later, a friend reversed into my car (it was a low sports car and he didn't see it in his Land Rover Discovery). So again, with the car damages while parked, I phoned the same insurance company and made a claim as before. Again, the same third-party contacted me about a hire car while mine was in for repairs. Again they delivered and and collected it when my car had been repaired. To me it was exactly the same experience as before... except this time my insurance company said I would have to pay for the hire car (they paid for it the first time) because they didn't deal with that third-party car hire business any more. God knows how the third-party car hire business got hold of my details.

I also know of a case of someone dropping an expensive camera into the sea and getting the cost of a replacement back via his travel insurance. When his House Contents insurance came of for renewal (not with the same insurance insurance company), the premium had increased markedly. When he queried this he was told that his travel insurance company found out that his contents policy would cover the loss of the camera, so they then made a claim on his contents policy for the payment they made for the camera...
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Offline royfellows

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2020, 02:52:28 pm »
Not necessarily on thread, but general interest, bouncing off the last post.

Beware of your vehicle insurers referring you to a "Credit Hire" company when the other party is obviously liable.

The costs are sky hire and when you enter into the contract with them you agree to bear the cost of anything that cannot be recovered from the other drivers insurers.

Case history
My Skoda VRS was written off in Goginan by a BMW which ran into the back of it while stationary making a right turn with indicator going. Rather expect the Beamer driver playing with his phone/satnav/ whatever instead of looking where he was going.

This was on Sunday, RS was write off with me nearly killed by going over an edge with a drop the other side, taxi back home as recovery cannot now take a car back to the drivers home. Why is another story.

Monday morning on phone, insurers already knew about accident, BMW driver admitted liability, my insurers send me the dreaded credit hire agreement. Reading it, I did not like what I saw. Next email in was from Saga Claims, the Beamer.

My first question was "Are you admitting full liability" Answer "Yes"
OK, how soon can you get a hire car to me?
This afternoon

Europcars delivered a nearly new i40 Hyundai at 1500 with a full tank and agreement for 2 months!
Saga payed me current fourcourt price for the RS and reimbursed the taxi fare.

As it turned out I located a new vehicle of my liking at Northampton and there was a Europcars branch a few hundred yards away to drop the hirer.
Didn't think much of the i40, no power at all and only 42 mpg from a modern diesel.
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Offline darren

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2020, 03:44:10 pm »
So what I'm going to do is tell people

We know Snowcard have successfully rescued/repatriated downed cavers in the past.
We have no reason to believe that BCA Expedition Insurance will not successfully rescue/repatriate downed cavers

That is the best I can do with the information I have.
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Offline Rachel

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2020, 05:48:15 pm »
I tried to get a quote for a holiday with a bit of easy caving involved and BCA insurance declined to give me a quote due to preexisting medical conditions. So not a great experience for me.

Offline Fulk

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Re: BCA Expedition Insurance, How's it working?
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2020, 11:14:52 pm »
PM sent, Rachel.

 

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