Author Topic: The Four Ways Club, Castleton  (Read 3620 times)

Offline Pitlamp

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The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« on: August 10, 2020, 09:05:10 am »
Someone drew my attention to a feature on the Pegasus website yesterday, showing a photograph of a very young P B Smith in the "Four Ways Club hut at the bottom of the Winnats Pass". I've never heard of this club before, or of a hostel near the bottom end of the Winnats.

Does anybody know anything about this? I'm guessing the photo would have been taken just post war.

The photo's on here: https://www.pegasuscavingclub.org/p-b-smith - PB, with his characteristic grin, is at far left.

Offline Judi Durber

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2020, 09:30:24 am »
Thanks for putting the link up.   :thumbsup:  What great stories.  :clap2:  Thank you Bari (Mick) Logan for wrting it down.  I could loose a few hours on here.   :coffee:
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Offline MJenkinson

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 09:45:35 am »
Aw gawd the tale of that sheep incident is hilarious!

Sorry to divert the topic Pitlamp.

Offline pwhole

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 02:51:12 pm »
And it has a photo of the Hollandtwine shaft top, ironically ;)

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2020, 08:56:51 pm »
The Pegasus website is first class; there's some excellent content on there.
(I submitted some stuff myself over the last 12 months.)

But . . . can anybody shed any light on the "Four Ways Club"?

Offline AR

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2020, 09:08:42 pm »
I wonder if the hostel was a rented shed at Speedwell, rather like the  goods wagon body at Rowter Farm that was the old SUSS hut ? Might be worth asking John Harrison.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2020, 09:15:29 pm »
Thanks AR - I very much doubt it has anything to do with the old SUSS hut at Rowter Farm as the place is described as being at the bottom of the Winnats and I think the SUSS cattle wagon hut dates from much later (late 60s / early 70s).

I did wonder if the hut was one of the buildings associated with Speedwell Cavern. Next time I happen to be speaking to John H I'll ask him. (However, that photo would probably have been taken before John was born.)

But - surely there are still folk about from P B Smith's generation who would remember this?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2020, 09:17:49 pm »
AR - having just re-read your post I see you weren't suggesting the Four Ways Club hut was actually at Rowter Farm; you were just wondering if it may have been the same type of hut.
A good point, actually.

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2020, 09:18:34 pm »
Club (caving, climbing, camping & trekking) is mentioned in John Travis profile:
http://www.emgs.org.uk/files/mercian_complete_issues/MG16_3_2006_complete.pdf

Grampian have some of their journals (seems Nottingham based):
http://www.gsg.org.uk/node/1427

It even gets a mention in a Belfry Bulletin (trip to Carlswark)

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2020, 09:31:56 pm »
Aha - nice one Mike. So maybe Nottingham based, probably formed very late 1950s or 1960(ish), caving was one of various activities regularly enjoyed by members and associated with DCA.

Offline pwhole

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2020, 11:06:24 pm »
Won't it be the building opposite the cavern where the staff toilet is?

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2020, 11:12:06 pm »
Won't it be the building opposite the cavern where the staff toilet is?

I was always led to believe it was the barn about half way along the overland footpath between Speedwell and Castleton.

Mark

Offline Mrs Trellis

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2020, 09:08:49 am »
Won't it be the building opposite the cavern where the staff toilet is?

I can remember that being a cafe. There's a photo in the shop of the Corrie cast visiting Speedwell in the early '60's and iirc the cafe is in the background.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2020, 06:15:13 pm »
Won't it be the building opposite the cavern where the staff toilet is?

I was always led to believe it was the barn about half way along the overland footpath between Speedwell and Castleton.

Mark

Good point Mark; I wonder . . . .  :-\

Are there any old artefacts kicking about which might suggest that was once used as a simple hostel? Perhaps if anyone goes past they could take notice.

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2020, 06:36:40 pm »
I bet Bograt would know.

Mark

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2020, 07:01:29 pm »
Another good point Mark - he uses this forum so hopefully he'll see this topic at some stage.

Offline T pot 2

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2020, 08:39:31 pm »
The road signs ended up at another hostel not far away.
The nearest to to the four ways hostel was the railway cattle wagon at rowter farm where Ben lived in the early 70s.

Offline bograt

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2020, 11:08:12 am »
Didn't get involved with the Castleton scene until the early '70's, before that I was Matlock based. Don't recall any Four Ways hostel, I think Teapot is referring to the SUSS hut, could it be the same place?
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Offline pwhole

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2020, 11:35:03 am »
These two are the only viable barns between Speedwell and the village - the third, near the old quarry, is a total ruin.

Offline mch

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2020, 05:17:14 pm »
Didn't get involved with the Castleton scene until the early '70's, before that I was Matlock based. Don't recall any Four Ways hostel, I think Teapot is referring to the SUSS hut, could it be the same place?

For a photo of the SUSS hut/railway goods van at Rowter, see page 12 of The Derbyshire Caver no 145, Summer 2017 - https://thedca.org.uk/publications/newsletters .

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2020, 07:13:48 pm »
There are one or two different photos of the SUSS hut at Rowter Farm in an anniversary journal which SUSS produced several years ago. But the SUSS hut was at the top of the Winnats whereas we're told that the Four Ways Club was based at the bottom of the Winnats. So it must be a different hut and club.

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2020, 10:39:31 pm »
The photo of the SUSS hut in the Derbyshire Caver brought back some pleasant memories. I used to stay there every weekend in the very early 80's before discovering the luxuries of the TSG hut with its significantly shorter walk back from the pub.

The photo of the Four Ways hut shows it to be stone built with a pitched roof and not a railway cattle truck.

Mark

Offline wellyjen

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2020, 09:34:13 am »
These two are the only viable barns between Speedwell and the village - the third, near the old quarry, is a total ruin.
Could it have become a total ruin because cavers were using it?  ;D
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Offline paul

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2020, 04:46:42 pm »
These two are the only viable barns between Speedwell and the village - the third, near the old quarry, is a total ruin.

From the Pegasus CC website, "An early photo of 'PB' Smith in the Four Ways Club hut at the bottom of Winnats Pass,, Castleton" Photographic Copyright:  (P.C.N.) refers to the Pegasus Club Nottingham collection.

After a bit of sharpening and contrast tweaking, it appears to be a stone-built building with corrugated iron roof:
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2020, 07:48:23 pm »
These two are the only viable barns between Speedwell and the village - the third, near the old quarry, is a total ruin.
Could it have become a total ruin because cavers were using it?  ;D

 :lol:   :clap2:

Paul - thanks for your efforts with that image; it's really good! It's clearly a single storey building (or a single story extension of a larger building). Does this help narrow down the options!

Offline pwhole

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2020, 09:15:11 pm »
After some further searching, this is a crop from a zoomed shot that has the two small barns in it - the one on the left looks a likely candidate?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2020, 10:07:14 pm »
Yes it does! And pretty close to Speedwell, so at the "bottom of the Winnats".
Reckon you may have cracked it there. I wonder if there's any artefacts still lying around outside which might suggest former use by a caving / outdoor club?

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2020, 11:26:29 pm »
I've been thinking about who might have told it was one of those barns. If it wasn't Bograt then it was probably PB.

Mark

Offline pwhole

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2020, 11:54:55 pm »
Yes it does! And pretty close to Speedwell, so at the "bottom of the Winnats".
Reckon you may have cracked it there. I wonder if there's any artefacts still lying around outside which might suggest former use by a caving / outdoor club?

It's possible some of the artifacts we pulled out of the Longcliffe shaft infill might have come from there! Like a part of a brass bedframe and a leather belt. A jar of 'Shippam's' potted meat and some 'Armour' baked beans. Not forgetting the green plastic Thermos flask of course. And half a housebrick.

In fact, that's more than enough material for a late-60s caving-based sitcom  ;)

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2020, 07:48:47 am »
It would be great to get to the bottom of this one because the FWC seems to have slipped (almost) under the historical caving radar.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2020, 07:58:51 am »
It's a long shot, but would a photograph inside that barn, composed the same as the original, reveal any similarities in stonework etc that might confirm it?
You can make out some distinctive blocks in the photo, so if you could identify the same blocks in the barn, you would have a pretty good idea that was it.
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Offline bograt

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2020, 08:16:50 am »
Anyone know if Eddy Mason is still around?, he was with TSG before me, he may remember...
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Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2020, 08:27:39 am »
The original picture shows a window & a support for the roof beam.

The smaller building on the left has a window at the right level (the one in the gable of the barn is too high and the opposite gable is blank)) and a roof support can be seen.

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2020, 10:32:02 am »
Anyone know if Eddy Mason is still around?, he was with TSG before me, he may remember...

He is still around, I was walking with him yesterday. He doesn't 'do' UKC but I'll try to remember to ask him about this when I see him this coming week.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2020, 09:18:14 am »
Thanks Nick.

Thanks also for the suggestions above re the detail of the building construction & photographing.
(I'm hoping pwhole might be interested in taking on this contract!)

Offline pwhole

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2020, 12:31:17 pm »
I had a feeling you might be. I had hoped to get out today to do some DCRO collection and then maybe run up the road, but I'm too busy working here sadly. Despite my recent forays into the mysteries of Castleton land-ownership/leasing, I can't honestly remember which farmer has this field. I know we got permission from him to do the Speedwell Vent scanning a few years ago, but it wasn't actually me who contacted him. I know I could just climb over the wall, but it would likely be the one day I really shouldn't have done it! I'll see if I can find out, unless anyone else already knows?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2020, 01:30:17 pm »
Yes, always better to do these things properly (even if it causes a delay).

You may even find that the farmer can give useful information to help with this query anyway, once the conversation has started.

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2020, 12:55:04 pm »
Just spotted this on Rightmove. See photo 2/7.

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-for-sale/property-72823764.html

Mark

Split topic, but wanted to keep marks original link

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2020, 12:55:39 pm »
Here's the sale page on Bagshaws own site - https://www.bagshaws.com/properties/land-off-goosehill-s33-8wd

Unfortunately the sale plot doesn't extend as far as the barn we're interested in, otherwise I'd print off a copy of the sale particulars and "go view"...

Offline Tangent_tracker

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2020, 02:23:48 pm »
And it has a photo of the Hollandtwine shaft top, ironically ;)

I always thought Hollantwine was in the (now filled) quarry?
Olly.

Offline pwhole

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2020, 09:59:57 pm »
It was, but Pegasus were in there until 1977 - Tony Jarratt's logbook states the last trip was 02/10/77 when they de-rigged everything and brought it out - see below - and the link here:

https://www.aditnow.co.uk/SuperSize/Recovering-A-Wagon_109196/

After a bit of searching it seems there are no useful surveys, plans or elevations of Hollandtwine anywhere - apart from one small sketch of a dig in the logbooks. I've got one more lead to go on and that's it. Unless anyone else has anything?

Just realised also that this should be in the other thread ;)

Offline Cheg Chester

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2020, 07:45:10 pm »
Has anyone thought of asking the Pegasus Club where the Four Ways hut was?

Offline pwhole

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2020, 10:51:10 pm »
I think you just did. I don't know if I know any members! Maybe I do but don't know it?

Offline Cheg Chester

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2020, 10:42:24 am »
The photograph of the Four Ways Hut was passed on to me by a Pegasus member, the late Dave Lucas (The one armed octopus). He had been a member of the Four Ways before he joined the Pegasus in 1964. On travelling down Winnats Pass Dave pointed out to me where the hut had been. From my memory of 56 years ago it was as you passed Speedwell Mine on your right the hut was set well back into a field that adjoined Speedwell Mine.

Offline pwhole

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Re: The Four Ways Club, Castleton
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2020, 01:34:21 pm »
Then it almost certainly is the one on the left in the photo at the top of the page. Saves me a pirate trip ;)

 

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