Author Topic: Grouse shooting same as other sports  (Read 1396 times)

Offline Alan Sp8

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Grouse shooting same as other sports
« on: September 15, 2020, 10:48:35 am »
Grouse shooting can be done with up to 30 people so the news says So looks like caving can now be done by more than 6 on a trip, :beer2:
Or am I mistaken?

Offline JoshW

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2020, 10:49:54 am »
As long as you shoot something on the way back off the fell I reckon you'll be alright..

Offline royfellows

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 11:03:44 am »
It appears that organised activities are being separated from casual ones. I expect that the logic is that by being organised, social distancing and other rules will be observed.

I would interpret this relative to caving whereby a trip has a nominated leader who has done a sensible risk assessment relevant to the particular trip.
Obviously grouse shooting has to be organised, we would not want people shooting each other, would we.
 :lol:
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Online Mark Wright

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2020, 11:22:07 am »
I think the event has to be officially licensed. so at last our BCA membership card is useful. 

I've been wondering if ignoring Natural England's demand of not digging in Eldon Hole is one of those specific and limited laws that it is now OK to break.

What do you reckon?

Offline royfellows

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2020, 11:46:33 am »
I would say clarification needed. Its all a rapidly changing scenario. My karate is back on, subject to the prepared RAs which have been agreed with the provider of the premises.
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Offline MarkS

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 11:51:13 am »
I've been wondering if ignoring Natural England's demand of not digging in Eldon Hole is one of those specific and limited laws that it is now OK to break.

What do you reckon?

I'm tempted to ask my MP, who voted for last night's bill.

Online Mark Wright

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2020, 12:24:56 pm »
As did Miriam Cates, my Tory MP. With her past voting record it is no surprise.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2020, 12:26:28 pm »
I think the event has to be officially licensed. so at last our BCA membership card is useful. 

I've been wondering if ignoring Natural England's demand of not digging in Eldon Hole is one of those specific and limited laws that it is now OK to break.

What do you reckon?

I didn't know NE had blocked Eldon Hole digging!

Offline Katie

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2020, 12:29:05 pm »
Quote
I've been wondering if ignoring Natural England's demand of not digging in Eldon Hole is one of those specific and limited laws that it is now OK to break.

What do you reckon?

Sign up Dominic Cummings to the digging team and it is bound to be a reasonable thing to do

Offline royfellows

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2020, 01:42:51 pm »
Here we go with e politics, bye.
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Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2020, 03:03:22 pm »
See https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=26981.msg329712#msg329712.  Grouse shooting is covered by another bit in the regs termed "relevant outdoor activity" which is widely defined so includes grouse shooting as well as the Cooper's Hill Cheese-Rolling event or even the World Gurning Championships.

Offline 2xw

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2020, 03:03:32 pm »
Note that the legislation also allows for rites of passage, entry into a faith, or support groups, all of which caving comes under I suspect

Offline mikem

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2020, 03:29:53 pm »
Shooters generally sit in their separate butts, so like fishermen usually isolate themselves anyway!

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2020, 11:38:13 pm »
It beggars belief that a government imposing draconioan controls on a populace are also advocating breaking the law in a limited  and specific way. Domonic Cummings must be kicking himself for not using that excuse for his Barnard Castle Eyetest.

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2020, 12:25:13 am »
According to a Mr Fawkes there are around 650 grouse in season nesting in Westminster, however, one hasn't been able to drive for hundreds of miles to get one's eyesight sorted to verify whether that is in fact a correct observation or not.

Offline mikem

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2020, 08:39:48 am »
It beggars belief that a government imposing draconioan controls on a populace are also advocating breaking the law in a limited  and specific way.
You're not breaking the law, as these are specifically excluded - like lots of other things in life...

Offline royfellows

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2020, 08:51:42 am »
I was at karate last night and we are not allowed to have fans or air con under the rules, it was murder, I had to leave the floor and go outside before I dropped.
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Offline royfellows

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2020, 09:01:45 am »
Thanks for this, will pass on the link.
It forms part of the clubs agreement with the premises provider as included in the risk assessment. It appears to be based on misinformation.
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Offline Speleofish

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2020, 09:51:33 am »
Air quality is arguably really important in reducing indoor spread of coronaviruses. During the original SARS epidemic, hospital wards with poor air-handling saw far more new infections than those with good air-handling. More than 16 air changes/hour seemed to be the key number. I haven't seen anything specific published for Covid but we took this as our target. In the older part of our hospital (where the main ICU and Covid wards lived) the air-conditioning system is very antiquated and could only manage about 4 changes per hour, so we put in huge extractor fans linked to hepafilters in all the Covid units. This seemed to work really well - ICU was probably the safest place in the whole hospital. The only downsides were that the howling gale made it hard to keep the doors closed and we couldn't condition such volumes of air, so it got pretty unpleasant on hot days.

Offline Fjell

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2020, 10:02:55 am »
There was a strange focus on taking 30 people grouse shooting, when a slightly more obvious interpretation was 2 x 15 = 30. A matter of staggering importance to some from experience.

Offline mikem

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2020, 10:11:51 am »
A union match without a referee or linesmen - they haven't quite thought it through... (League is okay though, but not Aussie Rules)

Offline JoshW

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2020, 10:30:23 am »
There was a strange focus on taking 30 people grouse shooting, when a slightly more obvious interpretation was 2 x 15 = 30. A matter of staggering importance to some from experience.

Having never been grouse shooting, you might need to fill in the blanks here, what's the significance of 2x15=30?

Offline Fulk

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2020, 10:44:06 am »
It strikes me that it’s not the actual shooting that’s the problem (well, apart, that is, for from the grouses’ point of view, of course), but the socializing that goes with it. I once went to photograph a shoot and it wasn’t just the post-shoot celebrations, but the pre-shoot breakfast – which included champagne!!

‘Couple of glasses of champers, old boy, before you set off with that lethal bit of kit under your arm, eh what?’

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2020, 10:52:42 am »
A union match without a referee or linesmen - they haven't quite thought it through... (League is okay though, but not Aussie Rules)
I am getting it checked but I don't think there is a 30 limit for sports gatherings, just weddings and such like.  Though I can see that it might be difficult to justify even 7 if they are in a small room with no ventilation.

Offline mikem

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2020, 10:53:52 am »
15 has nothing to do with shooting or hunting (see my other post).

Fulk - that's why they are positioned so they can only shoot the drivers, not each other!

Bob seems to be right about number not applying to sports:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/return-to-recreational-team-sport-framework
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 11:04:04 am by mikem »

Offline Fjell

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2020, 02:42:50 pm »
There was a strange focus on taking 30 people grouse shooting, when a slightly more obvious interpretation was 2 x 15 = 30. A matter of staggering importance to some from experience.

Having never been grouse shooting, you might need to fill in the blanks here, what's the significance of 2x15=30?

Offline JoshW

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2020, 03:27:42 pm »
There was a strange focus on taking 30 people grouse shooting, when a slightly more obvious interpretation was 2 x 15 = 30. A matter of staggering importance to some from experience.

Having never been grouse shooting, you might need to fill in the blanks here, what's the significance of 2x15=30?

I assumed you were referring to grouse shooting needing 2x15.. realistically though you're going to have another half a dozen subs on each side, plus ref, plus coaches, suddenly the number is far greater than 30 for a game of rugger.

I get the reasoning behind allowing people to get out and do sports, but nobody playing amateur league sports can seriously expect this season to finish.

If one person gets tested positively, anyone they've played against in the previous two weeks needs to self isolate, and their team then can't play for the next two weeks. Basically most of a league at a standstill for a month. And that's not taking into account if the person who tests positively plays for a club with multiple teams training together, and then you have multiple leagues at a standstill from just one person testing positively.

Offline prahja

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2020, 03:34:31 pm »
The thing I dont understand is that getting p*ssed and then shooting a load of innocent animals in a huge group is fine but cycling with six others (even if organised) is banned !

Offline crickleymal

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2020, 03:42:36 pm »
The thing I dont understand is that getting p*ssed and then shooting a load of innocent animals in a huge group is fine but cycling with six others (even if organised) is banned !
Probably because one of Bozo's mates and a tory party donor owns a grouse moor or two.
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Offline mikem

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2020, 03:54:17 pm »
British cycling is on the "phased return of sport" link I posted above, so don't know why they aren't on the other. But shooting is a business that won't pay for itself in small numbers, so no surprise there.

Offline Fjell

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2020, 04:09:45 pm »
The thing I dont understand is that getting p*ssed and then shooting a load of innocent animals in a huge group is fine but cycling with six others (even if organised) is banned !
Probably because one of Bozo's mates and a tory party donor owns a grouse moor or two.

One of the boarding houses at the school near us allegedly owns a grouse moor. Not sure if it feeds them. And I have yet to discover if it has any useful caves on it. Although they did used to take the kids down things like Lost Johns, I’ve seen the video. And that used to be a grouse moor, but seems to be infested with partridges now.

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2020, 04:10:54 pm »
Probably because one of Bozo's mates and a tory party donor owns a grouse moor or two.

As indeed does Cummings' father in law. Or maybe it's peasants pheasants he shoots at his Chillingham Castle Estate.

Offline royfellows

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2020, 05:22:06 pm »
 :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline pwhole

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2020, 08:18:35 pm »
I think the event has to be officially licensed. so at last our BCA membership card is useful. 

I've been wondering if ignoring Natural England's demand of not digging in Eldon Hole is one of those specific and limited laws that it is now OK to break.

What do you reckon?

I didn't know NE had blocked Eldon Hole digging!

It was Historic England who asked for it to stop, to be fair - I was at the Underground Conservation Forum (Derbyshire) meeting where it was discussed. Which, incidentally, is a critical resource, as it gets interested cavers and the relevant experts and authorities together in one room with tea and biscuits to formulate future policy. Not bad considering they're government agencies, but not many people ever go, which is a shame, as you get to help decide what happens. Obviously suspended at present, but I don't see why we can't move that online too. I don't think Natural England had any specific objections, under their remit at least, but for the sake of good relations, etc. etc. DCA had planned a winch trip down there for them this summer, and at least two of the HE staff, the area manager and an archaeologist, had bravely agreed to do it, but then we all know what happened to this summer's plans. It hasn't technically been cancelled, just postponed...

Anyway, grouse. I don't really have a strong opinion on the morals of it, but I suspect part of the reason is less to do with poncey privelege and more to do with the fact that everyone's spaced well apart and outdoors on a windy hillside. Unlike many caves, which seem far more of a risk for large groups to me, despite my enjoyment of it. It's not 'outdoors', that is for sure.

Offline owd git

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2020, 08:43:14 pm »
If grouse shooting affects the vulture I've been watching lately, grouse shooters will be MY prey thereafter! in a vegetarian way, of course. (i'll just not eat the corpses)  :thumbsup:
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Offline AR

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2020, 09:25:58 pm »
Thanks for reminding me Phil, I need to arrange for use of conferencing software through the DCA next month for a virtual UCF meeting...
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Online Mark Wright

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2020, 10:11:18 pm »

It was Historic England who asked for it to stop, to be fair - I was at the Underground Conservation Forum (Derbyshire) meeting where it was discussed. Which, incidentally, is a critical resource, as it gets interested cavers and the relevant experts and authorities together in one room with tea and biscuits to formulate future policy. Not bad considering they're government agencies, but not many people ever go, which is a shame, as you get to help decide what happens. Obviously suspended at present, but I don't see why we can't move that online too. I don't think Natural England had any specific objections, under their remit at least, but for the sake of good relations, etc. etc. DCA had planned a winch trip down there for them this summer, and at least two of the HE staff, the area manager and an archaeologist, had bravely agreed to do it, but then we all know what happened to this summer's plans. It hasn't technically been cancelled, just postponed...

Hysterical England. My mistake. Thanks for clarifying that Phil. There are so many of these groups and organisations it's easy to lose track.

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Offline droid

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2020, 02:15:45 pm »
t's not 'outdoors', that is for sure.

Well that's buggered the CRoW argument... :lol:
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Offline pwhole

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Re: Grouse shooting same as other sports
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2020, 04:43:10 pm »
I was waiting for that one ;)

 

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