Author Topic: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended  (Read 3024 times)

Offline ChrisJC

  • Funky
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1683
    • http://www.cowdery.org.uk
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2021, 08:35:00 pm »
Sadly the CROW argument is as yet unresolved. There are 6194 posts on here already about how it relates to caving, and the judicial review being driven by David Rose to try to resolve it.

I am going on the fact that there isn't anybody who is likely to complain, mostly because they are all too busy responding to FOI requests to be actually out in the woods.

Chris.
--
http://www.cowdery.org.uk
Mines, caves,
Land Rovers

Offline BradW

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 240
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2021, 08:48:31 pm »
Cavers, of course, are not a single issue group, or at least not one that would raise FOI requests to pursue an agenda.

Offline fishes 1

  • newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2021, 08:50:58 pm »
I don't think the CROW situation would give access to mines anyway?

Offline royfellows

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
    • mineexplorer.com
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2021, 08:57:21 pm »
I don't think the CROW situation would give access to mines anyway?

Correct
My avatar is a poor likeness.

Online David Rose

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 817
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2021, 10:20:06 pm »
Does this affect the classic Cwm Croesor trip?

Offline Dave Tyson

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 238
  • WCG/UCET
    • Wirral Caving Group
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2021, 11:35:53 pm »
Does this affect the classic Cwm Croesor trip?
No - that is not on the list of CAL sites

Dave

Online mikem

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5002
  • Mendip Caving Group
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2021, 07:17:02 am »
...and I suspect that there's not going to be much that comes to their attention.
Not if you don't post on public forums about it...

Offline ChrisJC

  • Funky
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1683
    • http://www.cowdery.org.uk
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2021, 08:00:00 am »
Two questions arise:
1. Did the CAL statistics get sent to NRW, i.e. do NRW know how many people visit the mines?
2. Are discussions over?, or are CAL and NRW still talking?

Chris.
--
http://www.cowdery.org.uk
Mines, caves,
Land Rovers

Offline Graigwen

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 620
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2021, 08:21:31 am »
Either way, this isn't good news for cavers.  Back to dressing like a rambler then  8)

I'm going to dress like a caver. If I get caught, I will put on an Australian accent and ask if they know the way to Adelaide.

Chris.

You might find it useful to view this account of a 14th century iron mine in Cumbria that reached 20th century New Zealand. (It is rather a good film.)

https://www.nzfilm.co.nz/films/navigator

.

Offline Stuart France

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 301
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2021, 09:46:54 am »
I confirm that CAL did submit annual reports and statistics to NRW.  We did not receive comments of any substance on these documents from NRW in return, nor any suggstions or complaints.  This is since March 2015 when the agreement came into effect.

NRW appears to be in breach of contract due to not giving us 6 weeks notice of termination in the absence of any identification of a breach by CAL and proper notice being given of that.  They terminated the agreement verbally in a Zoom meeting which was unexpected.  This has not been confirmed in writing yet and it is not clear NRW ever intends to do so.  We will follow this up.

We will continue discussions with NRW for a while but it is not clear yet if they will move their new position away from demanding things from CAL that we simply cannot do and are in any case disproportionate to CAL.  Obviously if they maintain that position the matter will be closed by us pretty quickly.

That doesn't mean to say it can't be revisited.  In my experience of resolving business contracts with NRW that contained utterly unreasonable demands on their part, it can take up to a year for things to escalate to a level in the organisation where someone senior enough on their side with full authority to negotiate engages meaningfully to obtain resolution in principle and then action it down the line.

Offline ttxela2

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 245
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2021, 01:30:46 pm »
Oh dear  :(

Well first of all, many thanks to all those involved with CAL for their work so far, I know I have benefitted greatly from it, as will have many other folk on here.

Secondly, booo to NRW generally in this instance.

Thirdly, if I were interested in bats and there welfare to any degree (which I sort of am) I think I'd probably much prefer a proper access and recording scheme to be in place.

Fourthly, if there is anything those in the know think we could do to help resolve this please let me know.

Online PeteHall

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2040
  • ChCC, GSS, SWCC, WCC, WCDG
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2021, 01:42:30 pm »
If it's of use (probably not in this instance), I know a number of licenced bat ecologists, one of whom does quite a number of underground surveys. I'm happy to have an off-the-record chat if it might be helpful.

The issue is that ecologists generally tend to prefer to arse-cover when it comes to bats, so they might not provide the pragmatic advice we are looking for.

Offline Paul Marvin

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
  • Bronze, Silver & Gold Swimming Certificates, WGAS
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2021, 01:54:51 pm »
How did this go so sour so quick ?  I have my suspicions but wont post on a forum  :-\

Paul
I dont know where I am going, but will know where I am when I get there.

Offline ChrisJC

  • Funky
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1683
    • http://www.cowdery.org.uk
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2021, 01:59:46 pm »
If it's of use (probably not in this instance), I know a number of licenced bat ecologists, one of whom does quite a number of underground surveys. I'm happy to have an off-the-record chat if it might be helpful.

The issue is that ecologists generally tend to prefer to arse-cover when it comes to bats, so they might not provide the pragmatic advice we are looking for.

It would be interesting to know if there is a background to this which non bat people would not be aware of, e.g.:
- People are using bat protection legislation vexatiously to prevent developments, antagonise the Forestry Commission etc.
- There have been legal changes, maybe a case recently won which increased potential penalties for bat bothering.
- A decline in the number of bats
- New legislation protecting bats, or demanding their recording, or placing restrictions on activities that might disturb them.

Chris.
--
http://www.cowdery.org.uk
Mines, caves,
Land Rovers

Offline royfellows

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
    • mineexplorer.com
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2021, 02:42:48 pm »
Please dont everyone just write off CAL
Stuart, Dave and me are still here and willing to talk if and when sense prevails.

For what its worth, my 'dept of simple solutions' would be to include possibility of bats on the Risk Assessments and the mitigation would be the guidelines taken from the NRW leaflet "Bats underground, what you need to know"

In the meantime, I counsel some caution. This has come like a bolt out of the blue and we have no knowledge of what 'forces' if any may be at work behind this. Or if such 'forces' exist, the agenda. Maybe best to stay away from the mines for a while, just a suggestion.
My avatar is a poor likeness.

Online mikem

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5002
  • Mendip Caving Group

Offline Dave Tyson

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 238
  • WCG/UCET
    • Wirral Caving Group
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2021, 09:16:04 pm »
Seems to be caused by things like this:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/870150/FOI2019_10351_Response_Redacted.pdf

Which don't seem to relate just to SSSI's:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bat_reports_at_county_hall_mold
I think this exactly highlights the problems NRW is up against.

I would strongly defend the FOI legislation but it can be abused by individuals as it costs nothing to submit requests and cause mischief. Maybe requests should cost a nominal amount, say £25, which would discourage multiple malicious requests. I could understand a bat hugger being concerned if building work is disturbing bats, but I know the historical society which looks after Rhydymwn have had real problems with people raising objections to access to any of the buildings - just in case there was a bat present. The society were trying to train up a member so that they could assess the situation themselves - but this proved very problematic and both DEFRA and NRW were less than helpful. I don't know what the answer is here, but I think that requests for information need to be logged with the identity of the person so that it is clear to others if this is a genuine concern or just making trouble.

Interestingly bats in mines in England don't seem to cause the same level of problems.

Dave

Offline RobinGriffiths

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1299
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2021, 02:14:20 am »
That reminds me. I arranged a rescue practice at BYP and PYW about 25 years ago, and thought it would be a nice touch to ask the bat people along as observers. What a pain in the arse they turned out to be. Far from being observers, they stuck their oar in so far that the practice almost got cancelled.

Offline robnorthwales

  • newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2021, 08:01:36 am »
Seems to be caused by things like this:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/870150/FOI2019_10351_Response_Redacted.pdf

Which don't seem to relate just to SSSI's:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bat_reports_at_county_hall_mold
I think this exactly highlights the problems NRW is up against.

I would strongly defend the FOI legislation but it can be abused by individuals as it costs nothing to submit requests and cause mischief. Maybe requests should cost a nominal amount, say £25, which would discourage multiple malicious requests. I could understand a bat hugger being concerned if building work is disturbing bats, but I know the historical society which looks after Rhydymwn have had real problems with people raising objections to access to any of the buildings - just in case there was a bat present. The society were trying to train up a member so that they could assess the situation themselves - but this proved very problematic and both DEFRA and NRW were less than helpful. I don't know what the answer is here, but I think that requests for information need to be logged with the identity of the person so that it is clear to others if this is a genuine concern or just making trouble.

Interestingly bats in mines in England don't seem to cause the same level of problems.

Dave

Knowing someone who works in FOI / Subjext Access requests for a public body, I have to entirely agree with Dave on this - they are bombarded with massive numbers of requests from the same few people, on a continual basis.

So much so that they have taken some of the worst to Court to ask for them to be declared 'vexatious' - which means that the individual requests can be refused if the information has been previously supplied or the request is worded so broadly as to be a fishing expedition, or if large numbers of requests are received from the same person or group

Offline ChrisJC

  • Funky
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1683
    • http://www.cowdery.org.uk
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2021, 09:59:06 am »
Perhaps it's time the legislation regarding bat protection is reviewed.

Certainly I find it hard to believe that they are endangered since they seem to crop up every time a development is mooted...

Perhaps it's why HS2 is costing £1million per meter to build - fending of the ecologists.

Chris.
--
http://www.cowdery.org.uk
Mines, caves,
Land Rovers

Offline royfellows

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
    • mineexplorer.com
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2021, 11:30:12 am »
I think that a universal problem is society is people 'really coming from somewhere else'.
My avatar is a poor likeness.

Offline Tribal Chestnut

  • regular
  • *
  • Posts: 70
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2021, 06:06:35 pm »
I find it hard to believe that they are endangered since they seem to crop up every time a development is mooted...

Perhaps it's why HS2 is costing £1million per meter to build - fending of the ecologists.

Chris.

That’s definitely not the case around here - a number of resi/mixed developments seem to have easily sidestepped any bat-friendly legislation, which is a real shame.

As for HS2, that seems to just be due to the number of fingers in the pie, together with ‘because it can’.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2021, 08:06:06 pm by MarkS, Reason: fixed quote »

Offline Graigfawr

  • newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2021, 08:30:54 pm »
May I suggest that CAL submit a short note to Welsh Mines Society Newsletter editor so as to ensure that this news is widely known and the implications appreciated?
 
From a personal perspective, its will impact survey and recording work that I'd already suspended when Covid began.

Offline Dave Tyson

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 238
  • WCG/UCET
    • Wirral Caving Group
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2021, 10:06:34 pm »
May I suggest that CAL submit a short note to Welsh Mines Society Newsletter editor so as to ensure that this news is widely known and the implications appreciated?
 
From a personal perspective, its will impact survey and recording work that I'd already suspended when Covid began.
We can certainly do this, but want to hold fire for a few days as there may be an issues to sort out

Dave

Offline Graigfawr

  • newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: The CAL agreement with NRW has ended
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2021, 08:07:24 pm »
We can certainly do this, but want to hold fire for a few days as there may be an issues to sort out

Thanks!

 

Main Menu

Forum Home Help Search
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal