Deviations

SamT

Moderator
Ive had a thought recently.

Places like JH, oxlow, maskill, nettle, long rake are all superb SRT trips in the peak and are On The Whole well P bolted. (if not over bolted).

The rigging topos are OK but its hard to remember all that info whist actually rigging (e.g. whether the 2nd deviation was before or after the rebelay).

Now I always work on the basis that twin P's will be a rebelay, and singles will be deviations - but I know in the past that there are places I have rigged where a rebelay has been on one P.

after using a couple of insitu deviation slings in maskill last weekend I thought

Hang on. why shouldnt all deviation P bolts that have been placed by dca and are included in the rigging guide have an in situ sling on them of the appropriate length
.

That way - people will know whether its a dev or rebelay. They would be easier to spot on your way down. They dont take much in the way of load. would last for years and years (and are easily replaced if worn) They are not critical if they fail. it gives you something to grab hold of. All you need is a snap gate. They would be the correct length (ive seen people rig a 120 cm sling that should really be a 20 cm sling)
yadada yadada.

Can anyone think why this would be a bad thing.
 

paul

Moderator
A pitch will start with a Y hang, quite often to place the rope in a good position as well as to provide a backed-up anchor. Not all rebelays need to be Y hangs. As long as there is enough rope above to absorb the shock should the rebelay bolt fail then a single bolt is enough. If there isn't wnough ropethen the rebelay bolt must be backed up as a Y hang. So you will often see single bolt rebelays on long pitches.

All DCA bolts are uniquely identified (even to the extent of subsequent replacements). There is a record of whenthey were placed and subsequently inspected, etc. This is a requirement of the insurers. Any other fixed aids would not be covered. If somebody were to anonymously place a deviation sling and leave it in-situ, that's fine. They cannot be placed "officialy" by the DCA.

Personally I think the rigging guides should be treated as a guideline and not slavishly followed. You should make your mind up as to how the pitch should be rigged: deviation, rebelay or whatever.

As to spotting deviations by their in-situ slings: at least it's a lot easier to spot P bolts than it used to be searching for spits (even those "Elliot" ones with the red fabric rings)!

Another reason to get into taking more thought on rigging using what's available as opposed to following topos slavishly is it makes it much easier rigging in caves for which there are no topos - espedically in many foreign countries.

Well, that's my £0.02's worth...
 

Stu

Active member
Haha

Blimey Sam! Isn't this a bit of a contradiction to your usual "rig off a pebble" type stance!! :D

I jest of course. There's stupid use of P's and sensible use of P's and I think that this isn't wholly inapproriate. There is an element of losing the adventure but heck... it's P bolted anyway!
 

SamT

Moderator
Personally I think the rigging guides should be treated as a guideline and not slavishly followed. You should make your mind up as to how the pitch should be rigged: deviation, rebelay or whatever.

So your up from oxford for the weekend and doing maskill - you aint exactly gonna say - "Well you dont need that rope - that dev there is unnessacery etc."

Any caver worth his/her salt should be able to work out whether or not a dev or re belay is required, It would just be handy if all the devation bolts had an insitu sling on it. As they always used to.

Blimey Sam! Isn't this a bit of a contradiction to your usual "rig off a pebble" type stance!!

Well - nearly all the pitches in maskill could be free climbed anyhow. - I your a proper caver like :wink:
 

Stu

Active member
So if slings or cord were to be left in-situ by philanthropic trogs as deviations, how long would they last ie avoid being chopped rather than worn out? Consensus dictates really or else someone's effort will be not be worthwhile.
 

Stu

Active member
Some sensibilities are easily offended!

Classic Elliot "digression" re: Bar Pot page 86 SRT rigging guide. Too long to type.

I would have appreciated a nice fat sling to aim for when on my first trip to Diccan. Glasses piss wet through so couldn't make out the tiny P, guide next to useless, cold and very wet. An example of when it would be useful.

I don't think slings marking the way means any less of an adventure or makes things objectively easier. Let's face it, sport caving is just that really! Enjoying the intricacies of a fairly well worn route.

But... there will be some who don't agree.
 

paul

Moderator
SamT said:
Personally I think the rigging guides should be treated as a guideline and not slavishly followed. You should make your mind up as to how the pitch should be rigged: deviation, rebelay or whatever.

So your up from oxford for the weekend and doing maskill - you aint exactly gonna say - "Well you dont need that rope - that dev there is unnessacery etc."

That's what we used to do before rigging guides...
 

cavemancolumbus

New member
SamT said:
Any caver worth his/her salt should be able to work out whether or not a dev or re belay is required, It would just be handy if all the devation bolts had an insitu sling on it. As they always used to.

When was that?
 

Hammy

Member
They are not critical if they fail.

Hmmm...if the failure led to the rope then rubbing on a sharp edge or allowed you to swing into heavy water then failure would indeed be critical - you have to consider the reason why you are using the deviation in the first place and since it is usually for one of the above then I reckon thats a good reason for using a decent sling tied off to the correct length - none of this 5mm cord stuff!!

Also using a P bolt as a rebelay rather than a deviation can make the climb back out faster cos it splits the pitch - if of course it is in a suitable position etc..

Remember that P bolts are immensely strong and so long as the rebelay isn't really close to the pitch head then it isn't at all unreasonable to use a single for a rebelay (eg last pitch of Juniper Gulf) - and if you feel jumpy about it you can rig with a long loop coming from the rebelay fig 8 or 9 thus reducing any chance of a shock load to a minimum.

Personally I prefer my caves to be tat free - and as for spotting the bolt well it ensures you descend the pitch slowly having a good look around - just think of the interesting things you might see that you'd have missed otherwise!!
 

mudmonkey

New member
Whilst Sam's idea appeals in some ways, there's an advantage to leaving things as they are. It's very useful for less experienced riggers in particular to have to think about what's appropriate where and why. P-anchors tend to reduce this thinking a lot anyhow compared to spits/naturals (not advocating a return from p's though they are sometimes overdone in some places where naturals are adequate...)

Just a thought....
 

dunc

New member
I don't think slings marking the way means any less of an adventure or makes things objectively easier. Let's face it, sport caving is just that really! Enjoying the intricacies of a fairly well worn route.
Ye, but half the fun is swinging around trying to find deviations and placing your own one in rather than just grabbing a ready placed one and sticking a krab in it! In place tat does makes things easier.

Personally I prefer my caves to be tat free - and as for spotting the bolt well it ensures you descend the pitch slowly having a good look around - just think of the interesting things you might see that you'd have missed otherwise!!
Couldn't agree more!!
 
G

GSR

Guest
i don't really think there is a need to leave any tat in situ for deviations because if it's in a key place, eg keeping you out of the full force of the water, then surely you don't want to be trusting yourself to a sling which might give at any moment. if it's not in a key place then you can enjoy the extra few seconds swinging around, placing your own sling.
 
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