Author Topic: CSCC Locks  (Read 2216 times)

Offline Fishes

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2021, 06:17:45 pm »
As an outsider I've never had issues getting access to most Mendip sites. I think access agreements are generally best left with local cavers/landowners who have put the work in over many decades to build access arrangements. I don't think outsiders should have a major influence in the matter.




Online alastairgott

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2021, 07:36:42 pm »
If I ever come to Mendip, I leave my house in the East Midlands at about 5am, drive to Mendip, do a days caving, then drive home.

That's keen! I think you should be given a Gold key to the Hunters inn and it's fiefdom.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2021, 07:39:23 pm »
I don't think outsiders should have a major influence in the matter.

Worry not, they don't.

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2021, 07:44:10 pm »
As usual a load of fuss about practically nothing. Most of us who cave on Mendip have our own key and as far as I know you can easily get them copied. Its a matter of trust on how they are used. I have never caved with a club and seldom visit my club huts. I am in a small band of old people who like to do things their own way and that includes sorting out access. Over Covid we have gained access to three sites for digging by using the personal approach. An approach by a committee representing hundreds of cavers would have stood no chance.

Offline JoshW

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2021, 01:10:58 am »
An approach by a committee representing hundreds of cavers would have stood no chance.

One of the strangest quotes in this thread, why?
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Offline badger

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2021, 07:21:17 am »
and not sure the thread is about landowner/caver relationship, in most mendip cases it seems fine. the issue is on how the landowner wants them secured. In CSCC it seems padlocked, then access to keys.
When I was not a member of a club or in a CSCC club I never experienced an issue in getting keys. And was only a very small inconvenience to go via a cave club. It was unusual not to find someone at the wessex who had access to keys

An all together different debate is whether the locks should be fitted with a derbyshire key or  padlock, seems to be pros and cons for both arguments, but since there for the majority is no issue getting keys why change it. FYI I am for open arrangements rather than locked caves. But dont see the reason to fix an issue which works for the majority and keeps mendip landowners happy

Offline PeteHall

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2021, 08:53:30 am »
Over Covid we have gained access to three sites for digging by using the personal approach. An approach by a committee representing hundreds of cavers would have stood no chance.

I'm not sure what point you are making TOR. Isn't this always the case for :dig: ?

A more relevant question would be, once your cave goes and more people than just the diggers want to visit, what will be the access agreement? Will the landowner be happy for it to be open, or will they want some form of access control. If the latter, who will manage it?

It is surely far better for this to be managed by a regional council, with a standardised system, than for you to get a phone call every time someone wants to go down. What happens when you reach the end of your caving career and/or life? Access is lost until someone else starts from scratch talking to the landowner?

Obviously the above is irrelevant while your site is a dig and basically nobody except the diggers want to visit it, so in the context of CSCC access systems etc, it is also irrelevant is it not?  :shrug:

Offline mikem

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2021, 04:29:38 pm »
But the thread title has been changed to CSCC Locks, so there is some relevance...

Offline Ed

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2021, 04:58:19 pm »
Keys aren't an issue --- about 2 minutes with a cheap set of lockpicks of ebay will open them locks.

Quicker than driving to a club --- can't do that with a combination lock.

Somewhere like Box Mine is always going to have issues no matter what lock you put on. Use a paddock and someone with just use the "universal key"

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2021, 05:12:36 pm »
Keys aren't an issue --- about 2 minutes with a cheap set of lockpicks of ebay will open them locks.

That might be the case if you're a skilled lockpick, which 99.9% of the population are not, even before you think of all the mud and rust in these things, and the awkward positioning of them. A lock will keep out most people who aren't willing to grind them off.

Offline Minion

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2021, 09:34:01 pm »
If you’re not a skilled lock pick like Ed, then £4 on eBay will buy you the correct key.

I’m opposed to gates and locks, but if they’re freely available on eBay for a few quid to all and sundry, then the gates and locks serve no purpose except keep landowners happy and stroke the egos of the ‘access controlling bodies’.


Offline NewStuff

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2021, 08:24:00 am »
If you’re not a skilled lock pick like Ed, then £4 on eBay will buy you the correct key.

While I can certainly pick locks, any half-decent lockpicker knows a key is usually a quicker option, unless the lock is truly awful. Got a link to those keys?? I can't find anything with a few varied searches.
I'm pretty sure the CSCC use Abus 50 series locks, so blanks are readily available.
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Offline estelle

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2021, 09:17:26 am »
Yes an individual can hold a key. I've had the old one and the new one myself even though I belong to a club with several of them in the tackle store.
me too, got mine from the CSCC as it is just more convenient to have one myself than go via a caving hut. If you want a key for your club or individually, best to contact the CSCC.
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Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2021, 09:52:09 am »
The car park at Fairy Cave Quarry requires a CSCC key and parking is limited in the lane. Basically that's why I have the key. Please always remember to lock the gate when you are caving.

As for access ( off topic ). Correct a dig is a dig. Should it become something else a permanent access arrangement is best. Foot in the door initially really.

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2021, 08:07:27 am »
If you’re not a skilled lock pick like Ed, then £4 on eBay will buy you the correct key.

If you know exactly what you're looking for and are aware that you can find it on eBay. A lock won't keep out anyone whose determined enough to do a lot of research or put a lot of effort in. Which means it will keep out everyone else. Which means they do their job pretty well.

I'm no fan of locking caves, but let's not misrepresent how well locks keep out Joe public. Instead I'd be interested to know how many legitimate cavers they keep out because it's more faff to organize a trip. That's the big issue.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2021, 08:30:23 am »
Instead I'd be interested to know how many legitimate cavers they keep out because it's more faff to organize a trip. That's the big issue.

Certainly it will keep me out. I don't go caving very often (I go mine exploring every 3-4 weeks though). When I do go caving, it can be anywhere in the country, and since it is generally a single day trip from a long way away, I will want somewhere that I can just drive to and go in.

As a consequence, I have never visited a lot of places, some of which are reputed to be quite good!

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Offline Badlad

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2021, 09:01:47 am »
Quote
.....Instead I'd be interested to know how many legitimate cavers they keep out because it's more faff to organize a trip. That's the big issue.

Indeed, this is a major point.  Although the caving community 'bubble' is the significant group, and I expect access for the vast majority within it is easy, there will be other cavers on the outside who do not know the system nor have the local connections which others find so easy.

There are parallels to the permit system in the Dales which I am more familiar with.  Similarly it was claimed to be a simple system for all legitimate cavers, and it was, for those in the know and within the caving community bubble.  Just as with the keys on Mendip, local cavers, regulars if you like, could get a permit with ease.

As I got involved with access in the north, and coming from outside the permit community bubble myself, I realised many legitimate groups were either put off by it or ignored it.  These could be groups of individual cavers or clubs from outside the area and likely some from outside of BCA membership too. 

Just one of many examples of this was a group of National Park rangers who had stopped caving in the Dales as legitimate access through the permit system was too much 'faff'.  This came to light, by chance, at a National Park meeting which I attended to promote caving.  The permit system had been a barrier to this group for many years and was an eye-opener to the plight of other legitimate cavers.

The point is that within the 'caving community bubble' you don't really get to know who you are putting off caving in your area.  No one really does.  Why do anything about it when the community is happy with the system?  That very much depends on the attitude of those in charge and whether they want to encourage caving, remove barriers and open up to a much wider outdoor demographic.

That is my experience anyway.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2021, 09:20:35 am »
The point is that within the 'caving community bubble' you don't really get to know who you are putting off caving in your area.  No one really does.  Why do anything about it when the community is happy with the system?  That very much depends on the attitude of those in charge and whether they want to encourage caving, remove barriers and open up to a much wider outdoor demographic.

For those who choose to cave outside an established club, or the BCA, access to a CSCC key may be more problematic and the CSCC is actively looking at how it can better represent and support these people

Offline andrewmc

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2021, 02:18:45 pm »
To be honest, my most hated cave access system is 'call at house'; much happier picking up some keys from somewhere than going around knocking on doors!

Offline NewStuff

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2021, 04:07:54 pm »
It certainly keeps me out, I'm not interested in jumping through hoops that simply don't need to be there. If the place is really interesting enough, there are always ways to open gates *without damaging them*. I'm certainly not in a tiny percentage, as certain sides like to claim, I'm merely pissed off enough about certain situations to get gobby about it. Most people won't speak up as they rather dislike the unofficial blacklisting they receive, and most can't open up places without damage, so it's a much more looming threat, and those that issue these threats know this well.
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Offline kay

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2021, 08:26:08 am »
To follow up Badlad’s point about the different experience of those not in the “caving bubble”, again in the North. Access was a huge deterrent. “Apply on club headed notepaper” was obviously impossible. “Informal” channels weren’t available to me. I went through Northern Caves marking all those caves within my capability that had no access restrictions - and was left with a tiny fraction of those caves within my capabilities. 

In those days it ruled out all the “write to NCC” caves; nowadays all NE land is open access.

As an individual caver in the North, access is hugely easier than it was in the 90s, thanks to Badlad and others in the CNCC, NE and its Cave Adviser, the CNCC website which gives up-to-date access arrangements and an easy booking system.

Offline droid

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2021, 02:58:50 pm »
Be careful what you wish for.

If you haven't got the nous to look up how to access a key, you probably haven't got the nous to do the cave without causing damage.

'Conservation' and all that...
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Offline ChrisJC

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2021, 03:43:48 pm »
Be careful what you wish for.

If you haven't got the nous to look up how to access a key, you probably haven't got the nous to do the cave without causing damage.

'Conservation' and all that...

That's pretty controversial!

I don't think it's about 'nous'. You can decline with the faff of getting a key / visiting somebodies house at 6am en-route, etc., etc. whilst still having plenty of nous.

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Offline 2xw

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2021, 04:18:29 pm »
What is nous? Is this yet another barrier to access. Who do I have to nous to get into upper flood and can I do it in public?

Offline droid

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Re: CSCC Locks
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2021, 05:21:04 pm »
What is nous? Is this yet another barrier to access. Who do I have to nous to get into upper flood and can I do it in public?

There goes another rib... :lol:
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